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I recently purchased a kaiser (it isn't here yet). I've been searching all over the internet for information on the Kaiser that should help with the video driver issues. Here is what I found:
The die shots of the MSM6260 and the MSM7500 look identical, which implies that the MSM7500 does not include ATI Imageon technology in the same die. I could not find a decent die shot of the MSM7200, but I suspect it is similar to the MSM6260 and the MSM7500. This means that the video acceleration hardware is a separate chip on the same PCB as the MSM7200 processor. This theory is supported by an image of a dismantled HTC Trinity and a dismantled Hermes. This also means that hacking drivers together from another functional device with similar hardware should be possible.
The question now is: Does the Kaiser include an ATI Imageon Processor? According to many PDF documents it does, but which Imageon processor? I tried to find a picture of the internals of the Kaiser and failed. I really don't want to dismantle my new Kaiser (too expensive me to replace), but perhaps somebody here with a toast Kaiser can dismantle theirs and post pictures. If we find out exactly what Imageon chip is being used we can find drivers for it (this method of finding drivers works in both Windows and Linux). It only makes sense that ATI has drivers for each of their chips, it's just a matter of us getting them.
I've attached everything I've found to this message (in the event that documents suddenly disappear again).
Also, According to this post it appears that HTC is actually working on some drivers, maybe:
http://brewforums.qualcomm.com/archive/index.php/t-17446.html
Information_1.zip
Information_2.zip
dinominant said:
This means that the video acceleration hardware is a separate chip on the same PCB as the MSM7200 processor.
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Click to collapse
There is NO ATI chip on kaiser. It is a well known fact from the kaiser motherboard pictures
and confirmed by HTC. Get a better phone (himalaya?) if you need hardware video acceleration
afaik its ondie inside the main proc
I've looked at the PDF (the one that mods the screen) and she did not photograph the actual IC's under the shielding like the person who dismantled the Hermes.
It doesn't make any sense that ATI would give Qualcomm their Imageon schematics so Qualcomm can fabricate a processor with on-die video acceloration hardware. What does make sense is that Qualcomm builds the MSM7200 so it can interface with an Imageon chip (this makes their processor modular, and more appealing) and HTC simply connects them with the PCB (motherboard).
If the Kaiser does not have an ATI Imageon chip on the PCB right next to the MSM7200 then it has no hardware acceleration and it will *never* perform better then the Hermes, with or without drivers. Even the Hermes had an Imageon chip. If you have pictures proving this then please post them because that would mean HTC will never release Imageon drivers.
Here you can see the MSM6260 is identical to the MSM7500, which would mean the MSM7200 is also the same.
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And here is a dismantled Hermes, with a dedicated descrete Imageon processor:
The Kaiser should have a descrete ATI Imageon chip on the same board right next to the Qualcomm MSM7200 chip. If it doesn't then there is no chance of fixing the video issues. If it does, then the first step is to figure out which Imageon chip it has.
Why would Qualcomm rebuild the same chip in 90nm after already going 65nm? That's a loss of power-efficiency, die space, etc unless they added other things on such as ram, or extra circuitry. Something is missing from in those pictures.
Here is the link to the FCC. The following is the entier site listing many PDFS.
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...omFrame=N&application_id=740611&fcc_id='NM8KS'
And here is the link to the internal pictures of the kaiser:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=791448&native_or_pdf=pdf
staulkor said:
Here is the link to the FCC. The following is the entier site listing many PDFS.
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...omFrame=N&application_id=740611&fcc_id='NM8KS'
And here is the link to the internal pictures of the kaiser:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=791448&native_or_pdf=pdf
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beat me to the naked pictures. I don't see a discrete ATI chip.
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=791306&native_or_pdf=pdf
edit: do see a Xilinx chip.
Possibly because of power consumption. AMD was having huge power issues on the 65nm process last year (their 90nm parts scaled/overclocked better than their 65nm parts) and I bet Qualcomm was too. These are mobile chips and power consumption would be a big concern. Then again It could just be a typo or something else altogether.
Those are the exact pictures I got from the PDF documents on the Semiconductor Insight website (I had to sign up to get some of those documents -- signing up is free).
According to this article, Qualcomm is a fabless chip producer, so perhaps they just contracted a foundry with 90nm fabs for less money & less power consumption.
Somebody be brave and crack their kaiser open!
AFAIK Q3Dimension is the "ati hardware accelerated unit"
dinominant said:
Possibly because of power consumption. AMD was having huge power issues on the 65nm process last year (their 90nm parts scaled/overclocked better than their 65nm parts) and I bet Qualcomm was too. These are mobile chips and power consumption would be a big concern. Then again It could just be a typo or something else altogether.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I get it: http://www.linleygroup.com/npu/Newsletter/CE/ce060413.html
Qualcomm is slowly switching all existing designs to 65mm to conserve power and it just hasn't hit the 7x00 series yet.
I couldn't get the PDF file to work in linux so I'll post the images here:
Kaiser 100
Kiser 110
Kaiser 120
This pdf is basically definitive that the Imageon hardware is part of the MSM7x00 chip somewhere.
Should we be discouraged that there's no ATI chip in on the Kaiser board?
i think you guys miss the fact, that the MSM7xxx is a highly integrated SoC.
The graphic core should be integrated on the die itself, so there will be no discreet graphicchip visible.
Infact it could be possible that the graphic core is on board of the die, but its just physicaly disabled, just like intel does with its cpus, disableing parts of the 2nd lvl cache or even one core of its dualcores.
Theres no way you can visually identify if the graphic core works or not (well when you have a electron microscope you could. )
Hornet331 said:
i think you guys miss the fact, that the MSM7xxx is a highly integrated SoC.
The graphic core should be integrated on the die itself, so there will be no discreet graphicchip visible.
Infact it could be possible that the graphic core is on board of the die, but its just physicaly disabled, just like intel does with its cpus, disableing parts of the 2nd lvl cache or even one core of its dualcores.
Theres no way you can visually identify if the graphic core works or not (well when you have a electron microscope you could. )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Die shot of the MSM7500 is identical to the MSM6260 though and the MSM6260 does not have an integrated Imageon processor, it's a discrete chip on the motherboard. So either the MSM7xxx series has integrated Imageon technology (and so does the MSM6260 in addition the one included on the motherboard) or both require a discrete Imageon chip.
I can't see ATI handing over their Imageon schematics to Qualcomm so they can integrate it into their chips, then not use the integrated one in the MSM6260 and add an additional discrete Imageon chip and use that one instead.
It looks as though the Kaiser does not have Imageon technology at all (unless it's on the other side of that motherboard).
so, we have all been screwed
Has someone found the internal pictures of the lg ks20. If the ati part is not in the main chip there should be an extra chip in here because in the lg the acceleration works.
Or am i wrong here?
I really hope that the kaiser graphic drivers will be released if there exist such a chip...
I feel a little let down by all this
sorry but im now highly suspicious of dinominant - is he a htc imposter trying to cull the uprising for drivers from the inside by claiming its a moot request? (this is the only thread he has posted in since he has joined this forum - note post count)
gogo paranoid delusionals
p.s im fairly certain its ondie - its SoC - lots of different bits and peices all stuck together on one die - from many different companies (shock horror just imagine the potential plagarism!!!)! (before qualcomm removed the chips schematics off their webshite, there were pdf's on there clearly showing ati hardware was there - ive got a copy of the pdf's at home somewhere)
lies lies and htc spies
NuShrike said:
This pdf is basically definitive that the Imageon hardware is part of the MSM7x00 chip somewhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
spot on m8 - do my eyes deceive me or does that say 'integrated ati 2d/3d hardware' - im not sure let me get my glasses...
Hello,
I have an XDA IIi, as far as I know it has a Intel PXA272 Proccessor, I have read that the Intel 2700g is used along with this CPU.
But I read that the only devices that have the Intel 2700G is the Dell Axim x50, X51 and Pepper Pad 2.
So does my XDA IIi have the Intel 2700g? If so is it the 2700g3, 2700g5 or 2700g7 ?
I know my XDA II has an ATI Imageon of some type, but not sure what graphics proccessor my XDA IIi has.
Thanks.
http://www.modaco.com/content/htc-alpine-alpine-modaco-com/232579/htc-alpine-dissassembly/
Not sure if this link will help answer your question
Look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMgqB5NARtQ
Where i can get it?
This OpenGL ES 2.0 demo is running on a Toshiba TG01 phone, which uses Qualcomm's powerful Snapdragon processor with full integrated multimedia hardware acceleration including Qualcomms Adreno 200 graphics core.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you cant. end of topic.
is it a game or really an UI? hey to be honest...that's maybe the worsest usability I have ever seen...
Found the datasheet on MSM7200A, would be pleased if any of you guys check it and compare it to iPhone graphics chip
Xperia proccessor MSM7200A, with integrated graphics chip
iPhone graphics chip PowerVR MBX-Lite (Sorry no datasheet)
Since the most popular (because of its app store, games quantity) is iPhone,
And I must say iPhone games are really superb for a graphics aspect, imo best graphics in mobile phones/pda/smartphones field. (like Sims 3, NFS Undercover), I wonder if Xperia could do the same.
In GSM arena, I discovered that iPhone graphics chip is Powervr MBX-Lite (On iPhone & iPhone 3G), featuring OpenGL ES 1.1, OpenVG 1.0, Direct3D and of course full 2D/3D support, which, compared MSM7200A integrated ATi accelaration, well, really Im not a Pro out here, so I've just found a Datasheet on this.
Not to tell about the WM gaming industry, which is ermm "....", but the fact, hope, that we could have this...
Now we have almost everything - itje, who dedicated very much to xda (his roms, other deeds are priceless) ((ofcourse his Touch-IT testing team, who not only answer touch-it related questions but is active like everyhwere)) other Rom and active app's/ xda contributors like gtrab, smaberg, jackleung,Tnyynt, fingerkeyboard makers, HTC encoder makers, other guys, fixing our phone bugs, creating soft for us,moderators... I could go on and on
naming these great people, who raised up our xperia from stock to almost perfection.
So only issue is...(for me ) gaming.
Heard that EA, gameloft are porting iPhone games to newer WM devices, but, I dont think that these sources are...well...realistic.
Tautvydas said:
Been looking in forums, web, to be precise, everywhere, even Xperia X1 White Paper, but Still havent got clarified answer on what Graphics chip does Xperia use. So I made several assumptions, by checking the information a little bit.
As common answer is Xperia uses ATI Imageon 2700, in Wikipedia there's no such chip number as "2700", also, Products with Imageon well, there's no xperia!
Imo, variants Xperia graphics chip is "Imageon 2388/2380" or "Imageon 2300" (If its even Imageon) , just need you guys to clarify this.
Just why I am making this thread - since Xperia is very versatile, like music/internet/messaging/videos with qwerty and etc. the only problem (for me), well, not as a problem, but as a shortage - gaming.
We have ScuMMM, sNes, sega, even PSX emu's, and maybe one game, who shows what Xperia is capable of - Xtrakt.
Since the most popular (because of its app store, games quantity) is iPhone,
And I must say iPhone games are really superb for a graphics aspect, imo best graphics in mobile phones/pda/smartphones field. (like Sims 3, NFS Undercover), I wonder if Xperia could do the same.
In GSM arena, I discovered that iPhone graphics chip is Powervr MBX-Lite (On iPhone & iPhone 3G), featuring OpenGL ES 1.1, OpenVG 1.0, Direct3D and of course full 2D/3D support, which, compared to "Imageon 2388/2380", is "almost" equal (dunno about Direct3D, although I think its not supported by Imageon) , so if any of you would tell whats the Xperia graphics chip, we would clarify the fact that we "could" enjoy the iPhone graphics (^^)
Not to tell about the WM gaming industry, which is ermm "....", but the fact, hope, that we could have this...
Now we have almost everything - itje, who dedicated very much to xda (his roms, other deeds are priceless) ((ofcourse his Touch-IT testing team, who not only answer touch-it related questions but is active like everyhwere)) other Rom and active app's/ xda contributors like gtrab, smaberg, jackleung,Tnyynt, fingerkeyboard makers, HTC encoder makers, other guys, fixing our phone bugs, creating soft for us,moderators... I could go on and on
naming these great people, who raised up our xperia from stock to almost perfection.
So only issue is...(for me ) gaming.
Heard that EA, gameloft are porting iPhone games to newer WM devices, but, I dont think that these sources are...well...realistic.
My target is to clarify Xperia graphics potential, know full information about graphics chip
P.S. Yes I've searched xda/google for this like crazy. Sorry for this thread to go as a poem.
P.S.S. Yes Xperia is business class phone, but hey, why not to dream? It still has got one of the best HW on WM devices around.
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Click to collapse
Could you maybe find out by taking the x1 apart and looking at all of the chips? I looked at some videos online but couldnt see the names on any chips - not sure if it would even say but it seems as if it could work - i looked around a bit too and i keep hearing about the Imageon 2300 but i cant confirm it sorry
the ati part is not a chip it's intergrated into the qualcomm cpu
http://www.google.dk/search?source=ig&hl=da&rlz=&q=MSM7200a+ati&btnG=Google-søgning&aq=f&oq=
more info
Well its not the 2300, here a quote from ati "Imageon 2300 integrates an advanced 2D and 3D graphics engine, MPEG-4 video decoder, JPEG encoding/decoding, and a 2 Mega pixel camera sub-system processing engine. With support for up to 2MB of ultra low-power SDRAM, it "
link:http://ati.amd.com/products/imageon2300/
since we have (being said) 128 mb shared ram and ive also read some where in some sheet that we have an tuned up gpu. (this is all speculative tho)
and why do the touch pro have 288 and we 256 ram? do we have a better gpu needing more ram ?
Updated the post, please check, now only we need guys to compare both phones graphics capability.
Chaosstorm said:
Well its not the 2300, here a quote from ati "Imageon 2300 integrates an advanced 2D and 3D graphics engine, MPEG-4 video decoder, JPEG encoding/decoding, and a 2 Mega pixel camera sub-system processing engine. With support for up to 2MB of ultra low-power SDRAM, it "
link:http://ati.amd.com/products/imageon2300/
since we have (being said) 128 mb shared ram and ive also read some where in some sheet that we have an tuned up gpu. (this is all speculative tho)
and why do the touch pro have 288 and we 256 ram? do we have a better gpu needing more ram ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems like SE/HTC made some kind of adjustment with these GPU on xperia's MSM7200A, wondering what, so your guessing might be right about better xperia's gpu, or its just that touch pro's all interface/oem/os modifications are more "hungry" for ram.
Just for curiosity, new released iPhone 3GS has PowerVR SGX535 graphics, also SE iDou has same chip from SGX family (530 one), so we can expect awesome graphics, chip's techinical capabilities are very big:
# next generation fully programmable universal scalable shader architecture
# exceeding requirements of OpenGL 2.0 and up to DirectX 10.1 Shader Model 4.1
Just that 3GS's chip will be better than iDou's (535 - 28MPolys/s , 530 - 14 MPolys/s)
soo..... where can we find an D3D drivers for X1i?
"Today, Broadcom is releasing the full source of the OpenGL ES 1.1 and 2.0 driver stack for the Broadcom VideoCore® IV 3D graphics subsystem used in the BCM21553 3G integrated baseband SoC. VideoCore IV is used in many Broadcom products, including the BCM2835 application processor, which runs the popular Raspberry Pi microcomputer."