Related
I think my phone is on its last leg. The screen has just recently become unresponsive. However, the hardware buttons (minus power) and the keyboard all still function.
I would try a reinstall of a new ROM to see if it is a hardware or software issue, but here is my dilemma. I am unable to connect to ActiveSync, so I am unable to get any contacts synced with my desktop and there were several new contacts from my last sync that I don't want to lose.
So, does anyone know of a trick to get the information (PIM is all I care about) off of the device even though ActiveSync isn't working? There is the PIMBackup (v1.9) program that I already had installed, but unfortunately it *requires* taps to activate. D-Pad and/or keyboard navigation does not work, so I can't backup to an SD card.
FYI, I'm using Helmi_BA_WM2k5_AKU3.5_v1.4.CF2 ROM if that helps.
Any help is greatly appreciated as I cannot make outgoing calls until this is resolved.
I'll try a ROM reflash as a last resort, but I would really like to be able to backup first. I'm even willing to mess around with hardware if people could walk me through it.
why can't you use activesync?
It says it cannot recognize the device. This is a somewhat recent happening, but not direclty related to this failure as that stopped working last week. I made the backup last week and never got around to investigating further.
Unless someone has a really great idea worth waiting for, I'm going to open it up when I get home (no tools small enough at work) and make sure that all of the connections are good. If that doesn't solve it, then I'm going to try reflashing a new ROM. If that doesn't work, then I've got insurance on the device (through Sate Farm) and I'll have to see what my options for repair/replacement are.
Hope it doesn't come down to it, but does anyone have any experience with phone insurance?
Would this work?
I just came across this thread/utility which will dump the entire ROM
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=238945
If I were to dump the rom, could someone with a "working" device upload it and then extract the PIM data (using PimBackup, whatever)? If so, I would be very grateful, heck I might even send some $$$ via PayPal.
Are there any other solutions?
Ok, I just got through disassembling the device and making sure that all of the connections were tight. Still, the touchscreen is unresponsive.
I've got ROM dumps, so if someone would be so kind as to flash those ROMs and extract the PIM data, I would be very appreciative. I don't want to just post the links for everyone to be able to download (since it does contain all of my information). If you would be willing to do this, then I'll give $20 via PayPal or another payment method. Either post here or PM me if you are interested.
Thanks,
Jonathon
have you tryed backup solutions like sprite backup or spb backup ?
I have not. I'm assuming that I would have to use the 2577 trick to install the program. Do you know if you can operate those programs without a touchscreen?
Someone tell me if I am wrong but only copying the file \pim.vol should be sufficient for backing up all PIM data. You can do this with Resco explorer, it can be controlled only with keys I think.
Wexx said:
but only copying the file \pim.vol should be sufficient for backing up all PIM data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is getting increasingly temperamental. Do you know if you can extract that from the ROM dump files? If so, can someone at least point me in the right direction as that would be much appreciated.
-Jonathon
Have you checked your USB cable, or tried to sync via blue tooth?
I had a similar issue. Every time I'd plug the phone into any computer, it would say that there was an error with the device and would not do anything with it.
It turned out that I had a broken wire in my cable. I replaced that cable with a working one (sacrificed a very old smart media card reader), and I was able to sync it.
From there, it was easy to pull the digitizer settings into a file (found a free program that was designed for people who have vision problems), flash the phone and reset the old settings as my touch screen is cracked and a manual alignment will not work any longer.
Plus, there are 'remote control' programs out there for WM that let you use it, even with a dead touchscreen.
No, I haven't checked the cable but I'll see what i can do. I don't currently have a computer that I can sync with Bluetooth, but I'll see if I can't get that working as well. I've already got 'remote control' programs installed, so if I do manage to get ActiveSync running, then I'll be golden. Thanks for the input.
Does nobody know if you can extract the pim.vol file from the ROM dump?
Just Sharing :
My friend have similar problem. Both of us use BA. Our Solution was :
- My friend have a PIM backup using SPB Backup (exe files)
- I ran the exe file in my BA to get the PIM
- Sync it to my PC and save the PIM with MS Outlook (pst file)
- My friend can open this pst file on his PC
I got it!!!
Here is what I did. Note, you can remap the softkeys to hardware buttons, so at least a few more commands are available.
First, I installed Pim Backup
http://www.pocketpcfreeware.com/en/index.php?soft=1806
Then I installed Resco File Explorer. I was able to put the Pim Backup executable on the storage card and run it without using the touchscreen. I stored the backup on the SD card, then just ran restore on a different device.
Thanks for all the suggestions!
Good to hear that you were able to backup, but were you able to do something about the unresponsive touchscreen?
Concerning the touchscreen, I am wondering if it isn't a software issue. It comes and goes, but interestingly enough there are certain things that seem to trigger it more than others. For instance, directly touching the Today screen will almost always lock it up and then nothing responds. However, other applications seem to work fine for brief periods of time.
I have just been swamped and a little hestitant to try reflashing to a new ROM. However, you can still navigate most applications (especialy basic ones) by just mapping the softkeys to hardware buttons and using the d-pad and keyboard.
Has anyone else had a similar problem in that the software was locking up the touchscreen? The only reason (other than being busy) is that if it is hardware then I won't be able to even get past the setup portion. I can't connect via ActiveSync (again making me think it is a software issue), so some types of backups are just not feasible. Oh yeah, I did try a different sync cable and it didn't work as well.
I’ve had the diamond for approx 1 month and regularly sync it to my work and home pc running XP and Vista respectively. Up until now I’ve never had a problem with activesync to any of my past smartphones or PPC’s.
My diamond has all of a sudden decided that it doesn’t want to sync anymore. It connects ok and I can transfer files back and forth it just won’t sync.
I’ve searched the forum and found similar symptoms but nothing has worked.
I’ve deleted the partnership from the device and both pc’s, created new partnerships which on first connection does actually sync (sometimes) but from then on either says “looking for changes” or “synchronising” until it times out giving the error message “Synchronising cannot be completed successfully. Reconnect your device and try again. If the problem persists, see the Microsoft Activesync Troubleshooter in Microsoft Help on your desktop computer”
I’ve tried the help, I’ve let it do its own diagnostic, I’ve unchecked the “enable advanced network functionality” option in USB to PC. I’ve soft reset, hard reset, the only thing I haven’t done is re-flash a new rom.
Does anybody know if flashing a new rom/radio will solve the problem. I would normally just try it but I spent an hour yesterday after I hard reset putting everything back to the way I like it only to find that it synced the first time but wouldn’t work again.
If anyone has any other suggestions before a re-flash I would welcome them. Otherwise I’ll bite the bullet and hope for the best.
I’m currently running Duttys V1.6 Radio version 1.00.25.07
I Had this problem
Hey fella, i was having this problem and after doing a little research i found the following.. If you constantly activate and deactivate the mobile (pair and unpair) you can corrupt A/S on the system. The only way i got around this was to uninstall active sync and re-install it again.
Hope this helps...!
I've never been able to get activesync to work harmoniously between relationships with two PCs.
Most syncs with a second machine after successful syncs with a first tend to result in errors that require my intervention, especially if an item of data has been changed. Drives me mad sometimes, and I often need to spend more time fixing these errors than it would take to manually update stuff across my three devices. I get the feeling the comparison/processing engine activesync uses is no where near sophisticated or clever enough to carry out the processing, and when it does have errors, the scope for my intervention to help it in its quandary are fairly hopeless.
I'm hoping that as devices like the diamond bring this lets face, it fundamentally great, but nevertheless fundamentally flawed platform to the masses, then Microsoft will have to put more effort into activesync and how it copes with relationships across two (or perhaps even more in future) PCs.
Ps, neomagik, actual connection, which sometimes has hiccups, has never been a big problem for me, (a few minutes in the various settings usually sorts these), but I've been using activesync for about 4 years before my diamond with with my HP4700 and various double PC partnerships along the way, and can confidently say that the problems I describe are not device related, but are the result of activesync inadequacies.
Thanks fyew-jit-tiv but I've tried that already. Also, it wont sync to WMDC in Vista either and it's unlikely that the same fault occured in AS and WMDC at the same time. This is what leads me to believe it's the Diamond and not the PC's.
Been there, done that....
Suprised you've not had this issue earlier...I've been suffering with Activesync issues for years
There are lots of ways to diagnose and resolve but perhaps you just might want to get the sledgehammer out...this mostly works for me....(I hope your familiar with Outlook!)
On one PC (I would use the XP "older" Op system one) export your synced data from Outlook to a .pst or .ost file for backup and later import (after delete & tidy stuff you no longer need in Calander/Contacts/Tasks, etc)
then
Delete all your data in Outlook, create a new empty .pst (connect to same), delete old .pst
then
delete partnership with device (to be sure), and remove same data (Contacts/Calander etc) from device
then
You can then check the exported/saved .pst for errors (I can't remember the MS programme...google for it), once satisifed OK import all you info back into Outlook
then
Synchronise with new partnership to device.
Hopefully so far so good
(sometimes I even rename the device-partnersip etc in case something "residual" there stays behind and corrupts something )
Next
Prior to connecting device with WORK PC:
Delete all previously synced data in Outlook and delete partnership there. I then make sure that in Activesync (before establishing new partnership) that I click option for one way data transfer ie replace items on computer with those from device
then
...plug in and establish new partnership, hopefully no problems....data populates computer from device. Once established then put back how you prefer data to be transfered (if there is a conflict etc)
Return home and partnership there still synchronised, Hopefully this works
If you find that there are still issues, you can un-Check and Check each synced area (Contacts, Calander, Tasks, Synced Files) independently to see where the conflict is.....
...I have found conflicts mostly occur with:
i) Calander: Birthdays/Anniversarys (probably as they are extended recurring events)
ii) Calnder: Meetings etc that might be recurring
There are real issues if using old versions of Outlook (2000 for me at work ) syncing with most recent ones!!
Sorry for the mad typing but best I can do for a "Quick" reply....Good luck !!
Studz, I know what you mean, I often get errors where it asks you to "resolve item" and after a while of playing it usually works. This is different, it won't sync at all.
neomagik said:
Studz, I know what you mean, I often get errors where it asks you to "resolve item" and after a while of playing it usually works. This is different, it won't sync at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Presume you have done the most obvious, and that is un-install and re-install Activesync and the Vista sync programme on both PC's ?
neomagik said:
Studz, I know what you mean, I often get errors where it asks you to "resolve item" and after a while of playing it usually works. This is different, it won't sync at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had this once I think a year or so back. Tried so many things that I can't remember what finally fixed it.
I think a good place to start though, like PJ6363 says, is do a clean sweep... re-install activesync on both machines, and I would also reinitialise your Outlook Account (.pst) on the master PC and delete on all other devices.
Good luck, and tell us how you get on.
neomagik said:
Thanks fyew-jit-tiv but I've tried that already. Also, it wont sync to WMDC in Vista either and it's unlikely that the same fault occured in AS and WMDC at the same time. This is what leads me to believe it's the Diamond and not the PC's.[/QUOT
Neomagik... Sorry i could help any further fella.. As i said in last post i had this problem and i just re-installed A/S... The only other thing i done after i un-installed A/S was to run a registry cleaner.!
P.s i don't think is down to the Diamond. I Was having this problem with the Touch (elf) too...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, i have similar issue w/ sync and finally, i solved the problem by changing the sync cable.
Thanks folks,
I'm going to try all of these.
@ Snufkin, I'm using two different sync cables so I know this is not the problem.
My diamond did funny things when the screen would turn off quickly after connecting because i set it not to charge when connected. Gave all sorts of weird errors.
Now, screen stays on because i want it to charge and sync completes now, still takes a while though.
You guys are aware that WM6.1 has a problem syncing with 2 computers, aren't you?
Some people claim they managed to do it and I believe them, only none of the voodoo worked for me. Never had that problem with WM5 and 6.
pedmond said:
You guys are aware that WM6.1 has a problem syncing with 2 computers, aren't you?
Some people claim they managed to do it and I believe them, only none of the voodoo worked for me. Never had that problem with WM5 and 6.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
there is a long thread about this issue somewhere conclusion 100% in wm 6.1 you can not sync with 2 PC. this is a wm 6.1. related problem.
i can sync with 2 pC my athena with wm 6 but i can not do it with the diamond or trinity. don't even try it. it will mes you the whole outlook!
Sync with WM6.1....off course u can!
Been syncing my Kaiser and now Diamond with WM6.1 for well over a year with 2 PC's. Must have done it at least 20 times with various devices and ROM's. Kicker is that my work has W2000 & O2000, and at home I use XP and O2007....still works!!
I'm not saying I don't occasionally have issues...but I do carry more than 1000 contacts and and extended calander with numerous recurring entries
.....like I've posted before (as many others) there are issues, but nothing insurmountable. I'd be lost if I could not sync my work PC, homw PC and PDA
Read around and you'll see........
here u are, i found the thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=377823
i tried long and hard to sync my diamond with 2 pc. all i got is errors and double tasks and appointments. got tired and gave up! my contacts list is too precious to play with!. i do have over 600 contacts and 1300 numbers (tlf, mobile, fax).
in order to have my diamond sync with 2 pc i syinc it with one, then i sync my athena and sync with the second....lol...this is my way to have 2 pc and 2 htc devices in sync.
I had my Diamond (and previous Trinity) synced with 2 pc's. No major problems until now.
It's dead
OK, I have tried the steps suggested by PJ6363 with no success. It won’t sync to the first pc let alone the second.
I then decided to dig out the old C500. After blowing the dust off I hard reset to clear out any info left on it. Plugged it in and hey presto, immediate sync. Unplugged it and tried again, another sync. Added a contact whilst synced and it updated straight away.
I then deleted all partnerships on pc and diamond and plugged it in. It went through the usual setup and connected to the device as before but surprise surprise, no sync.
Does this not mean that the data on the PC is fine and it is a problem with the Diamond, possibly a hardware problem?
Unless anyone else can suggest anything I’m going to flash a new rom but I have a strong suspicion it will not make a difference.
neomagik said:
OK, I have tried the steps suggested by PJ6363 with no success. It won’t sync to the first pc let alone the second.
I then decided to dig out the old C500. After blowing the dust off I hard reset to clear out any info left on it. Plugged it in and hey presto, immediate sync. Unplugged it and tried again, another sync. Added a contact whilst synced and it updated straight away.
I then deleted all partnerships on pc and diamond and plugged it in. It went through the usual setup and connected to the device as before but surprise surprise, no sync.
Does this not mean that the data on the PC is fine and it is a problem with the Diamond, possibly a hardware problem?
Unless anyone else can suggest anything I’m going to flash a new rom but I have a strong suspicion it will not make a difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It looks like something other than what I have been pointing out....see here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=377823
I think you need to get serious and re-install the actual software itself on the device (hard reset), appears that Activesync on PC's is good...but would re-install there anyway!!
Look at it this way, you have found a sweet excuse to update your ROM withthe latest version and clean up your contacts/calander etc....should not be an issue with a fresh ROM install (try SwiftB 6.0....excellent!!)...let us know how you get on
Ah ha....forgot something critical...if you are syncing using older version of Windows (2000) or Outlook ...or any issues syncing for that matter, then I found that you MUST go to Settings->Connections->USB to PC and turn off Enable Advanced Network Functionality...have you done this?
I'm starting to fear if something is broken in the phone because no matter what I do, it fails to work with mac osX..
Any suggestions on how to get eg. WmWifiRouter work in macs, or even how to sync it with some synchronizer application -because none of them fails to connect me whether it's BT or usb.
I think the right procedure is to launch eg. missing sync or syncmate what else are there? which is the most reliable?), then connect the usb-cable, then choose Activesync as connection type and that's it?
Doesnt work for me No matter whether 'enable advanced network' is on or off. The applications simply fail to detect my device.
If I choose the disk drive, it works for a while as an external drive but soon stops responding or turns helluva slow.. I've tried copying pictures and movies from it for months now (tried this every now and then), but I'm running clueless on what to do
What are the correct bluetooth settings in mac with diamond? I cant get it to work either.
I want to use it as proper high-end toy, I even have 1mbit wireless net in it when using it with WmWifiRouter, but even that doesnt work for me and I cant understand why Help pls
I use Missing Sync for Windows Mobile, and I connect to Bluetooth. It syncs seamlessly and transfer files without problems.
You can find the program and / or the information here
Another option is Sync Mate, it's free for Standard version but you can buy additional options (iTunes sync etc) in the Expert Edition.
http://mac.eltima.com/sync-mac.html
Prefer it to Missing Sync personally.....
Missingsync vs. Syncmate
I tried both and my suggestion is not to try it. Reason being if you use Missingsync, use missingsync only. If you use Syncmate, use syncmate only.
However, Missingsync is better due to its more stable system. Syncmate tends to double copy items in calendar and contacts. It'll be an annoying mess to clean. I did it and it's no fun when you have over 500 contacts in your phone.
Anyway, that's my recommendation.
Mike
mantonsim said:
I tried both and my suggestion is not to try it. Reason being if you use Missingsync, use missingsync only. If you use Syncmate, use syncmate only.
However, Missingsync is better due to its more stable system. Syncmate tends to double copy items in calendar and contacts. It'll be an annoying mess to clean. I did it and it's no fun when you have over 500 contacts in your phone.
Anyway, that's my recommendation.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only had that issue with an early beta of Syncmate, never had that problem again.
I have an expert edition from Eltima (sponsored by Eltima for testing their beta's ).
I must admit that the software had some hickups when it still was a beta, but I nowadays it's running like clockwork.
My 2ct's (euro cts = 2.75 $cts )
I'm going crazy trying to figure out why syncmate won't sync with my phone. I installed the driver on my phone, yet it doesn't connect with the program. I open syncmate and it never recognizes I have a phone plugged in. I've followed syncmate's steps to no success. Does anybody know what to do?
I tried both for a season and found MissingSync to be a generation ahead. It's been out for quite sometime and is very stable. I had hard time syncing with Syncmate. I sync my device via BT and works like a champ. It's a bit expensive but well worth the price.
My gsm diamond is arriving soon and I'm trying to make sure everything will work with my macbook pro (OSX Leopard), so I've read up on syncing programs for mac and upgrading hard spl etc.
My problem is that all the files I've come across for upgrading hard spl and radio are in .exe format. Is it possible to upgrade using a mac or do I need a pc with xp/vista?
As far as I know syncMate/MissingSync can't read and open .exe
(I've searched ways of "opening the contents" of .exe using stuffit and file juicer with the possibility of a .cab file being inside but to no avail. I may be barking up the wrong tree with this one...)
Sorry I've been searching for aages but couldn't find an answer. Is there a solution to what seems like a fairly simple problem...??
You can sync your WM device with your mac as explained before.
To upgrade the ROM, you will need a Windows installation. Personally, I tried to do it through a virtual machine with WMWare but never succeeded (It seems that once the device reboot, it is not recognized anymore by the virtual machine)
Youmoussa said:
You can sync your WM device with your mac as explained before.
To upgrade the ROM, you will need a Windows installation. Personally, I tried to do it through a virtual machine with WMWare but never succeeded (It seems that once the device reboot, it is not recognized anymore by the virtual machine)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, i always upgrade using the Mac:
-take the signed_image.nbh and rename it to DAIMIMG.NBH
-connect the diamond as a disc
-copy the file to the internal storage
-flash by rebooting into bootloader (volume down& back plus reset)
Safe simple & fast!
I've got a MacBook Pro, and I've been working around a bunch of these issues. First, why are you trying to cable sync your WinMo phone? You are better off keeping everything in the cloud. I have an exchange server at work, so all my contacts, calendar events, and emails sync OTA.
Also, Google has a new beta out:
http://www.google.com/support/mobile/bin/answer.py?answer=138636&topic=14299
This lets you use your gmail account with Activesync if you don't have an exchange account. You can manage all your contacts, etc OTA for free. Much better than paying for wonky syncing software. Plus, when you flash your phone a million times, it's pretty easy to get everything back on
As far as flashing, you will need to flash from the bootloader from the internal memory if you don't use Boot Camp. Parallels won't cut it, either (not sure about VMWare); you have to be in windows for everything to work smoothly. However, it is nice that the Diamond can be put into mass storage mode; it makes copying files to the diamond a piece of cake.
the-equinoxe said:
Actually, i always upgrade using the Mac:
-take the signed_image.nbh and rename it to DAIMIMG.NBH
-connect the diamond as a disc
-copy the file to the internal storage
-flash by rebooting into bootloader (volume down& back plus reset)
Safe simple & fast!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem with that is that you have to delete everythin on the internal storage first. (I had to the last time)
daveeckert said:
I've got a MacBook Pro, and I've been working around a bunch of these issues. First, why are you trying to cable sync your WinMo phone? You are better off keeping everything in the cloud. I have an exchange server at work, so all my contacts, calendar events, and emails sync OTA.
Also, Google has a new beta out:
http://www.google.com/support/mobile/bin/answer.py?answer=138636&topic=14299
This lets you use your gmail account with Activesync if you don't have an exchange account. You can manage all your contacts, etc OTA for free. Much better than paying for wonky syncing software. Plus, when you flash your phone a million times, it's pretty easy to get everything back on
As far as flashing, you will need to flash from the bootloader from the internal memory if you don't use Boot Camp. Parallels won't cut it, either (not sure about VMWare); you have to be in windows for everything to work smoothly. However, it is nice that the Diamond can be put into mass storage mode; it makes copying files to the diamond a piece of cake.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can't sync music and pictures with your solution.
I have a Tilt. It syncs fine to my old laptop which just dies on Sunday.
I have a NEW laptop which has a slightly different name.
The Tilt is going to sync flawlessly to the new computer - it started and I stopped it because it was going to duplicate my 1350 contacts etc.
I would like the system to realize that the contacts are identical on each system and that no sync is needed.
I told it not to sync at this time - it then immediately started syncing and found 0/1350 contacts and was about to start duplication when I stopped it.
Has anyone done this before? I am suspicious that I am going to hae to MANUALLY delete one by one the contact in my phone so that when it syncs it will not duplicate - if this is really what I need to do - does anyone have a quick way to purge the contacts in a phone?
Thanks
Bill
If your old laptop is dead I can assume you won't ever use it again to sync, so:
On the phone, open ActiveSync, Menu->options, delete any partnerships there.
Connect to the PC, recreate partnership, and on first sync it should give you a popup asking what to do (sync, phone replaces PC, PC replaces phone). Choose PC replaces phone. All the info on the phone will be deleted and replaced by the PC's data.
This is what I've been doing numerous times when formatting my PC. I would sync before formatting, then save Outlook's PST file, format, restore my stuff including the .pst, then sync again using the above method. I understand you restored the PST on the new computer as well.
Of course what's on the phone but not on the PC (what has been done on the phone since your last sync with the dead laptop) will be lost.
kilrah said:
If your old laptop is dead I can assume you won't ever use it again to sync, so:
On the phone, open ActiveSync, Menu->options, delete any partnerships there.
Connect to the PC, recreate partnership, and on first sync it should give you a popup asking what to do (sync, phone replaces PC, PC replaces phone). Choose PC replaces phone. All the info on the phone will be deleted and replaced by the PC's data.
This is what I've been doing numerous times when formatting my PC. I would sync before formatting, then save Outlook's PST file, format, restore my stuff including the .pst, then sync again using the above method. I understand you restored the PST on the new computer as well.
Of course what's on the phone but not on the PC (what has been done on the phone since your last sync with the dead laptop) will be lost.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My friend, Thank you.
This forum is a wonderful place. To be able to come here and ask a question before I toddle off to sleep and have it answered perfectly before I get to work again is magical.
Please have a great day!
Bill
I tried searching for a similar thread but couldn't find any, so sorry if this is a duplicate, but is there a way to retrieve my contacts over USB? I somehow managed to destroy the screen on mine (while it was in my pocket no less) but the phone still works (i can call the last person i called prior to it breaking). Is there a program to get the numbers off the phone via USB/ a file to dig through in the phones internal memory where they are stored? Any advice you can offer would be incredibly helpful. I made a backup maybe 3 months ago but theres about 3 numbers in there that would be pretty hard to get again.
If you connect to USB with Active Sync on, you should have the contact sync to your Outlook. This is not happening?
something isnt working correctly with that (i never set it up prior to the phone breaking, not to mention im a bit worried about it deleting the contacts on my phone, it did that once before) and without a screen on the phone its hard to fix it. but i can get the windows explorer dialogue to come up, which is why i was wondering if there is a way to get the numbers that way?