Database Develop

New apple Ifoon versus the BA

From what I've seen there is not a lot more that the Ifoon can offer over what the BA has.
I like the look of the ifoon, but other than edge what else does it offer?
A bigger hole in the bank account.

Agreed.
Apple, welcome to 2004.

Heh, they've just announced that it won't be able to run third-party apps unless they are certified by Apple.

no ways yoz
fraser said:
Heh, they've just announced that it won't be able to run third-party apps unless they are certified by Apple.
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haha bros that's an apple patent.. we all know this!! software support always been an apple downfall. Not only that but no physical buttons?!? What happens when the 'super apple' touchscreen goes out? ouch! You got that bar of soap it so much resembles!
I dig my BA, but it's too big and bulky, get a hermes for that price! Apple and Jobs built a POS. They're just jealous that M$ is getting so much recognition with new smartphones. Last year at this time it seemed half the world didn't even know what a smartphone was.. until the release of these smartphones like the Q/blackjack, every lil 16yr old cries to their parents for one. What a crock! My opinion.
Apple needs to stick to software, the Intel macs are tearing up the G5's all around.

I have watched the introduction of the iPhone over the net.
This is the best device of this class!! It is lightning fast, it is operated with fingers only (no stylus!!!!!) it is a unique Softwae/hardware simbiot!!! After all how many IPods have crashed or needed soft reset, hard reset and so on? If Apple release this wonderfull device I'll get myself one for sure!
This is personal opinion!

OrionBG, I'm not convinced. I know at least three iPod users that have had serious problems. Dodgy batteries, music db corruption (complete loss) and other issues with iTunes have left me quite unimpressed. The mere fact that they force you to use iTunes bites the big one. My friend had to reset his whole library after his PC hard drive crashed. Well, he would have if it hadn't been for the "illegal" utilities I helped him use to recover most of it.
Apples "Just Works" thing is largely a marketing myth. Pop over to any unofficial apple forum to see the real issues that their hardware has. You can't discuss these things on their official forums; if you raise a bug that they can't be bothered fixing, they'll just delete the thread everytime you raise it. Check the discussion in that link; they have a long history of this.
They also sue websites and threaten them if they say anything bad about apple. If this forum was larger they would be complaining about my current post. Paul over at Modaco had to remove a Today screen for Windows Mobile that looked a little like the apple one announced. If you announce any Apple "secrets", they will threaten to sue you even though you have never signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement. They have bigger lawyers than you and more money to spend so people rarely fight back.
Apple suck. This is not the right way to run a company IMHO. They are a bad company guilty of anti-competitive practices and this has been consistent over the past five years. Their recent hardware has been very anti-consumer and of poor quality. The only reason they get away with it is because their main competitor has a worse track record in these regards and that they have a fantastic marketing department.

Have u heard about piratebay activity called http://buysealand.com/ they've just decided to buy small "island" - no lawyers problem anymore.
... and one of the greatest tactic is "how something is amazing" post by "ordinary people" together with deleting "the wrong one".

I read jobs' debut of the ifoon. There's some neat ideas there. I like the large screen. This is also the reason I've kept a BA. I also like the idea of the device sensing the orientation of the device and changing the screen orientation. I don't possibly see how the keyboard is going to work, especially if one's fingers are large.
I love the slide out keyboards by HTC. The keys stick out enough to feel.
Concerning the OS, I used to hate MS OSs. Win98was aweful. However I've been using XP Pro on an HP laptop for almost 2 yrs with very little problems.
I also use an HTC Wizard with Gamescans Mr. Clean AKU2.3 is completely stable. It is the most reliable phone/pda I've ever used and I've had a Treo. The Wizard needs a larger processor and UMTS/HDSPA - hence the Hermes.
I haven't bought the hermes yet because I keep hoping to see HTC give us a large screen, processor, and 3G. I'm getting older and like the big screen.
The perfect phone would have the Dash's rubbery non-slip outer surface with a 3.5" hires screen, at least a 400 processor, a slide out keyboard, AM/FM radio, SD card slot and maybe a HD, UMTS/HDSPA, quad band, headset jack, BT 2.0, add GPS and WiFi. The device has to go at least a day with heavy UMTS surfing.
I may settle for a Hermes (TyTN or xv6800) if AKU3.** is available. I want to tether my phone & Laptop at 3G once in a while

rambo6 said:
I read jobs' debut of the ifoon. There's some neat ideas there. I like the large screen. This is also the reason I've kept a BA. I also like the idea of the device sensing the orientation of the device and changing the screen orientation. I don't possibly see how the keyboard is going to work, especially if one's fingers are large.
I love the slide out keyboards by HTC. The keys stick out enough to feel.
Concerning the OS, I used to hate MS OSs. Win98was aweful. However I've been using XP Pro on an HP laptop for almost 2 yrs with very little problems.
I also use an HTC Wizard with Gamescans Mr. Clean AKU2.3 is completely stable. It is the most reliable phone/pda I've ever used and I've had a Treo. The Wizard needs a larger processor and UMTS/HDSPA - hence the Hermes.
I haven't bought the hermes yet because I keep hoping to see HTC give us a large screen, processor, and 3G. I'm getting older and like the big screen.
The perfect phone would have the Dash's rubbery non-slip outer surface with a 3.5" hires screen, at least a 400 processor, a slide out keyboard, AM/FM radio, SD card slot and maybe a HD, UMTS/HDSPA, quad band, headset jack, BT 2.0, add GPS and WiFi. The device has to go at least a day with heavy UMTS surfing.
I may settle for a Hermes (TyTN or xv6800) if AKU3.** is available. I want to tether my phone & Laptop at 3G once in a while
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Nobody will build a perfect phone : )

!! M$ !!
Sure everyone hates M$ but what are the most widely used OS variants in the world.. Without a doubt...Windows products! Eat that Apple/Linux/whatever users
Plus like I stated, the need for physical buttons are a must, no? That must be one super touchscreen on the apple it will be the one way to navigate? Not even a scroll wheel like relatively cheap smartphones? OUCH! hope you have absolutely clean fingers no matter what that screen will be soo smudged up with nastiness!
Apple jealous of M$ tearing up the mobile market, can't stand it! hahaha I love it!! They're hardware is behind, only thing they've got going for them is the camera.
Apple ish*t specs
Technical Specifications
Screen size 3.5 inches
Screen resolution 320 by 480 at 160 ppi
Input method Multi-touch
Operating system OS X
Storage 4GB or 8GB
GSM Quad-band (MHz: 850, 900, 1800, 1900)
Wireless data Wi-Fi (802.11b/g) + EDGE + Bluetooth 2.0
Camera 2.0 megapixels
Battery Up to 5 hours Talk / Video / Browsing
Up to 16 hours Audio playback
Dimensions 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.46 inches / 115 x 61 x 11.6mm
Weight 4.8 ounces / 135 grams

I have never had apple stuff, but I watch apple closely. And I must admit, they build good stuff.
It's easier to shrug off the iPhone, especially if you don't have the money to buy it
cutting through the grituitous bashing, as well as the hype, I have seen good and bad things.
GOOD:
No doubt it has a hardware platform powerful enough to perform at least as good as our BAs, and probably better. Yeah, it could have 3G, but it would add too much to the cost of the machine.
INTERFACE. Don't spit this 'I can do the same with 15 taps on my screen' style of crap. The machine has MULTITOUCH. That opens a whole window of possibilities for interactivity. like the demoed zoom, where you hold two fingers together and slide them apart on the screen to zoom in a map.
It's not like our touchscreens which can only detect a single coordinate on screen.
Not to mention all that eye-candy OS X is famous for. OK, you may scoff on eye candy, but used wisely (and apple knows how to do it), you can have visual clues of what's happening and this actually improves usability. Otherwise just pick up your Nokia 1110 with its black-and-white matrix and shut up.
They have no legacy to keep compatible, so they can really innovate. And I believe they are really innovating on this area.
Another nice touch is the orientation sensor which automatically changes from portrait to landscape when you rotate the machine. no buttons.
THE MIXED:
Apple's choice of software model. It will have a final say on what's available for the machine and what's not. I bet the apps will be available only through iTunes. It's good in the sense that they can ensure that software complies to a certain standard, which means good quality.
It's also probably a bane for the warez crowd, because pirating software will be much more difficult, if not impossible.
It will probably be bad for the hobbyst crowd, which would like to code for fun for their devices, and probably won't be allowed to. Unless Apple releases some open IDE a la Carbide, but since they are already closing up the door on software availability, this possibility is remote.
I think it's more bad than good, but at least we can hope this will be a death sentence for software developemnt for this platform, and that this will actually result in more security. Not that we have many actual threats out there, but smartphones have the potential to be hacked into, become zombies for spam botnets etc. etc. When the spammers/crackers start to tap on this, we might start to see Windows Mobile get into a nightmare...
THE BAD:
It lacks 3G, it does not have direct iTunes access (you have to cradle it to sync and add stuff);
It has no SD card slot. Now THAT's a ****up, it has a screen big enough to play videos, but not enough space to carry them.
No removable battery? WHAT did they have in mind? OK, I don't usually swap batteries around, but I tend to buy extended batteries (my BA has one). I only this machine has GOOD battery life, this might not bite as much.
It would be good to have a GPS throwed in too... hey, let me dream!
Cingular only... Hmm, I believe this won't last long. Other companies have launched branded products, but eventually they open up for the market after some time. I believe there have been t-mobile onlys before, after some time they will allow everyone to buy it. Remember, it's all about PROFIT. Apple will not close their market that much. If they can sell more, they will. They are probably working first with the operator which was easier to work with, they gave more of how apple wanted to control the device and the network. And they will probably use this to scrub on other operator and say 'Ok, if you don't do it the way I like it, I won't do you the favor of selling my devices to you' (Yeah, Apple is a bit like a diva). They will try to use the Cingular-only argument to try to drive the operator into submission. It's a reversal of roles, where usually the operators dictate what they want and don't want on their devices. And maybe they can pull it off.
IT's EXPENSIVE. Apple/Cingular is really 'stretching the thong' on this one. Either Cingular is not subsidizing AT ALL (have you thought of this possibility?), or the machine is really expensive.
I don't think the BOM justifies anywhere close to this price tag. The screen is the same size of a LifeDrive, which is not anywhere near the cost of this machine. 4-8 GB flash? look at the iPod nano's price tags. ARM CPU + radios, there are plenty out there. motion/orientation sensor? Hmm, look at the Wii controls, I think I have read something about them, those things are not expensive nowadays. The only exotic stuff is the multi-touch sensor, and those things exist for quite some time, they are just not popular. and lacking stuff like 3G radio, SD slot and... a removable battery cover (sigh) helps driving down the cost.
The profit margin is fat here! yeah, there is all this 'pay for R&D blah blah', but they are going to make a few good bucks.
BOTTOM LINE:
It's the first generation. I will wait and see. 1 year from now the price tag will be sane, I will probably be able to buy an unlocked one, and even better if I can find a 2nd generation device which has GPS and a SD card slot.

pda...of course
in primis...here in hungary every apple stuff is sold for a double or triple price as in the US, this means, that the ifoon would cost minimum 1000-1200$...that is not affordable...or, of course, it is, but the ifoon doesn't worth that much...
pro secundo...the operator lock...well...it's discussed on many forums, that it wont be easy to crack it, so if it ever would be sold here, you couldn't change operator easily, and if not at all, it sucks...
pro tertia...the multitouch...say anything, that it's better than a single stylus...but i can't imagine, that i'll use my thumbs to scroll an ebook, or play minesweeper ;]...but anyway, if the software range is limited, than it matters no...sending an sms could be easyer, maybe, because, you could type...but you should use full screen keyboard...which is annoying, and anyhow, you could take it in your hand like a psp, so you could use only thumbs, that are big...and as mentioned...you will mess the whole screen with fingerprints all the time...that suck again
the thingy has no IRDA, this way you cannot use it as a remote control for tv, or what...
and, and as mentioned above...no gps, no sd, no changeable battery...anyhow 3G is said to be installed in it, till it will be merchandised...

Brazilian Joe said:
I have never had apple stuff, but I watch apple closely. And I must admit, they build good stuff.
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I disagree. Sure, their PCs will get you on the net but as soon as you try to do something more complex they fall down. Their support is rubbish and they regularly delete bugs and forum posts about issues they can't be bothered fixing. Their computer hardware and QC have been slated regularly. About the best thing they have going for them is their legion of fanboi's (and astroturfers) convincing people that their computers "just work" when it's not the case.
They also threaten sites like xda-developers as a general rule. They probably have more lawyers than developers, basically a small Microsoft during it's evil phase.
About the only thing they've done right lately is the iPod, and even it has all the "all apple, all the time" idea where you can only buy music from iTunes and get it on to the device. If you try to write software so that people are free to use something else other than iTunes, they'll sue you for that.
Oh, and now they are charging you for patches and feature updates and calling it "an accounting quirk".
Apple suck, most people are just too blinkered by their dislike for Microsoft to see it.
INTERFACE. Don't spit this 'I can do the same with 15 taps on my screen' style of crap. The machine has MULTITOUCH. That opens a whole window of possibilities for interactivity. like the demoed zoom, where you hold two fingers together and slide them apart on the screen to zoom in a map.
It's not like our touchscreens which can only detect a single coordinate on screen.
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It's nice, but I'm not all that impressed. Sure, most of us will have seen the multitouch proof-of-concept videos last year on a full PC, but this is on a phone. There isn't all that much room for more than one active finger. And what about one-handed operation? You'd need to have it on a table for multi-touch. And what, on a mobile, can it actually be used for that's superior to any other UI component?
Not to mention all that eye-candy OS X is famous for. OK, you may scoff on eye candy, but used wisely (and apple knows how to do it), you can have visual clues of what's happening and this actually improves usability.
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It's most redeeming feature IMHO.
They have no legacy to keep compatible, so they can really innovate.
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Nope, built of OSX and it uses iTunes. That's quite a legacy there alone.
And I believe they are really innovating on this area.
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I could not disagree more. All they've done is take a standard device and slap a pretty UI on it. We could get that via a software update on old hardware right now. In fact, we had it and they forced hanmin to remove his post via bogus legal threats. One good thing about all of this is that MS will have to rethink their UI and play catchup a little.
Another nice touch is the orientation sensor which automatically changes from portrait to landscape when you rotate the machine. no buttons.
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My digital camera has that, it's very useful and intuative. You see it happen once and from then on it's instinctive just to rotate it. However, on a phone when it has to send redraw events to the running applications and deal with resolution changes, I'm not convinced this is something you want switching everything you move your arm.
Apple's choice of software model. It will have a final say on what's available for the machine and what's not. I bet the apps will be available only through iTunes. It's good in the sense that they can ensure that software complies to a certain standard, which means good quality.
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That's fine, but IMHO if you visit the xda-developers website often, this is not the phone for you. If you visit "hello" magazine and read about Paris Hilton, maybe that's the software delivery model designed just for you.
It's also probably a bane for the warez crowd, because pirating software will be much more difficult, if not impossible.
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Not sure, signing doesn't prevent piracy, it just prevents tampering and provides a trust mechanism. Unless they generate you an unique key-pair for every purchase which I seriously doubt.
It has no SD card slot. Now THAT's a ****up, it has a screen big enough to play videos, but not enough space to carry them.
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Stream via WiFi, via iTunes and your credit-card? Standard Apple practice, charge 'em where possible.
No removable battery? WHAT did they have in mind?
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Making money. Officially when your iPod battery dies (often 1 year old), you have to buy a new iPod.
Cingular only... Hmm, I believe this won't last long. Other companies have launched branded products, but eventually they open up for the market after some time.
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Don't hold your breath, it's a two-year (!!) contract.
I don't think the BOM justifies anywhere close to this price tag.
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No, but the Apple logo does apparently. All of their stuff is at least 30% over market value.
It's the first generation. I will wait and see. 1 year from now the price tag will be sane, I will probably be able to buy an unlocked one, and even better if I can find a 2nd generation device which has GPS and a SD card slot.
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Agreed. Might even get one myself, but I reckon that it'll give the other mobile platforms a kick up the butt and they'll be well ahead by then.

The subject is iphone versus BA
Nobody actually talk about BA at this thread.
Obviously, iphone wins.
Apple's real advance is draw all ppl's attention, media focus, even they build a ****.
Jobs yells, Look at our new ****!!

yoz my last post as a BA user
Heck I have cingular and i'd take a $200 BA over an $499 iphone anyday!! My last post as a BA user, I loved it, great, fast, versitile device. 3.5" display can't beat that.. widescreen at 240x320.. amazing hardware when it released. Lets seea crossbow leap to the BA.
! Long live HTC !

A friend of mine is very Iphone-minded; so from the moment he get's it, I'll have a look at this "device".
I can tell you this much: you will only be able to do with it what apple wants you to do with it - modifying, installing apps? forget it!
I can't imagine a iphone-developers.com

Hmm, there is an iSupply review estimating the BOM (hardware cost alone) to be around 250/280 for the 4/8 GB iPhones.
Even if I lived in the US, I wouldn't rush into the iPhone. i'd wait and see.
I like to see all technological advancements, and I am not a fanboy of ANY brand.
For example, while I have always preached AMD over intel since the K6, now I am recommending Core 2 Duo to anyone who asks. The performance speaks for itself. Since I acknowledged what the Centrino was doing, I kept a close eye on the Intel developments... When They announced that the Core 2 Duo would have an average 20% better performance over the Core Duo, I seriously doubted about it. I have read the technical articles, but I still was skeptic, believeing that they were trumpeting a 'best case' as if it were THE performance. But I was wrong. Core 2 Duio is really all that, and it will be interesting to see AMD catching up.
personally, I actully think AMD will pull it off, with the 'specialized cores' approach. They will embed a GPU (I believe it will be generalized and simply called a 'stream processor') in a multi-core package this year, and soon I believe we will see a Crypto core, and who knows what else. maybe AMD even ecides it's a good idea to have a FPGA as an extra core, and that would open an incredible number of possibilities.
Back to the iPhone subject:
I see the iPhone design as the antithesis of Nokia, nothing is more antagonic to the 'buttons only' approach of S60 than a touchscreen-only.
UIQ and Windows Mobile stay in-between, playing both games, but apparently losing on both. I would like to have a hands-on test drive on the iPhone, but I believe they got it right on the interface.
I really believe the software model they are trying to impose is on of iPhone's greatest risks, the other one is being locked on Cingular for too long, and those could cause its demise.
I really hope it suceeds though, because there is at least one thing it brought to the market, and I really, really hope Microsoft adds it to Photon (WM7): MultitouchScreen.
Competition is good.

well. I have read a great deal on the new i phone. My own opinion is simply that they will NOT corner any part of the mobile phone market let alone come anywhere close to the BA or HTC models of any description.
Apple are already running into stupid problems already if the BBC news here in UK is correct. Apparently the "i phone" name is already a no go thanks to a previous copyright name came from a different company. And as far as being original and up2date....apple are always very close to the mark when it comes to this. Remember last year towards Nov Dec time when LG showed up with their version of what they say as the interactive mobile phone. And how close
the apple phone is in comparison to the LG. I say no more.
OS X maybe pretty to look at, but I much prefer the adaptability and personalizing of the modern Windows Phone edition etc. Have what you want, when you want, HOW you want. AND then....carry ALL your media content including movies mtv clips cartoon....oh yes...AND music (mp3 ogg files etc)it all about (if you prefer) on you OWN memory card.
I digress...

Well, Apple is not that much of a stupid company.
They negotiated and researched before trumpeting the iPhone name.
More recently, after the 'what did they had in mind' reaction, it came up that complaints were filed both in the US and in the EU, in attempt to revoke Cisco's copyright over the iPhone brand for lack of use.
Seems they picked one of their existing products and just badged it as an iPhone, to try to keep hold of the name at the expiry date.
the productitself was released much later and is not what they showed previously, so Apple is trying to free up the name.
Well, it's a gamble, but they would't even try if there was no chance to win on trial.
It will depend on convincing the judge that Cisco was sitting on the name and not using it for too long, so long that they lost their rights over it.
It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

Kaizer or Apple Iphone?

I know, Kaizer packs more in, but i hate 3G due to battery drainage and am happy with Edge. The Apple is way cooler no doubt, but no gps and the keyboard sucks?
tough call...

Your poll is gonna be a bit biased hah
Iphone lacks 3rd party support
can't swap battery
no keyboard
not subsidised
premier discounts voided
just a few reasons I can think of at the moment.
Also many ppl who *would* have an 4/8 gig Iphone have a 20-80gig Ipod already, so theres little advantage to getting it other than its kinda cool.

Don't know what you think your poll is going to show other than Teens will vote for ipone and Business folk will go for the Kaiser....
d

I vote for iphone.
HAHAHAHAHA!

Definitely Kaiser! Can't wait for it to hit the shelves!

Well considering the only thing you say you don't like about the Kaiser is the 3G then i'd suggest you run with the Kaiser as you can choose which network to be connected to on-the-fly.
iPhone really is the most overhyped phone to ever be released.

i'd go for the kaiser out of the two because i like the keyboard, and i'm not really a fan of apple products - and i think having a phone with a non user replaceable battery is lunacy!
what about the new se p1i? i used to really like sony's but went for the tytn as i couldn't be arsed to wait any longer for the p990...

dwella said:
Don't know what you think your poll is going to show other than Teens will vote for ipone and Business folk will go for the Kaiser....
d
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hahaha im a teen but even i know the kaiser is better. im not gonna be tricked by apple. ppcs are way better.
so far only 3 votes on the iphone lol

http://www.mobile-review.com/articles/2007/iphone-name-en.shtml
after reading that, i think you will have only 1 choice... i was really shocked of course i had my bias, but i didnt know it was that bad and that limited

EDGE???
Show me the place in UK where it works???
AFAIK there's no EDGE on nay of UK networks...

Im pretty sure Orange supports EDGE.

It all depends on what you are doing.
I have used the iPhone (my brother's) and I must say that is is pretty slick and rock-solid in terms of connectivity - albeit slow connectivity relative to 3G.
IMHO - if you need something that is half-baked iPod, half-baked iPhoto plus a phone with pretty bad audio, but WAY COOL looking - you get an iPhone. Of course, you cannot mind being tethered to the mother ship.
Now, if you are mobile, need email, want to download RSS feeds, video and audio podcasts and need all of the connectivity options to handle scenarios ranging from client office wireless networks to airports to taxicabs and your own office Plus you want some music and photos of your kids (or car or babe), you get a Kaiser.
Now if either of them had that 1.2 million color screen of the N95 we would be talking some serious beauty!
Personally, I will be camping - pre-iPhone style in front of my ATT store on September 3 for a Kaiser!

Umm, no offense to anyone but it seems to me that when one considers phone purchase of this kind, the iCrap and the Kaiser cannot be in the same category.

Its not a tough call... the Iphone is a piece of **** for people that don't have a hard demand on their phone. If you are a power user get a Kaiser.

if you want features besides an mp3 player and a picture viewer like every phone out there has, get the kaiser.

It is as comparing Apples with Pears (Tytn II) ;o))

Blasphemer
If you were true to htc and windows mobile you would stick with the kaiser, iphone even thou its got its nufty features like that zoomng in and the keyboard (which on our windows mobile you can now simulate) its still buggy even after the updates at least with kaiser you know its got windows mobile 6 plus u get full keyboard and the tilt and brilliant for the gps even thou the battery would drain faster who cares go on ebay get a higher capacity battery and in car charger then get a extra battery while your there and a exturnal battery charger thats what i did for the Htc Universal (which sadly broke grr that usb port breaking and then gettting stuck in bootloader mode)

Fleetphoenix said:
If you were true to htc
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Oh dear. No-one should stick to a product just because of the company that makes it.
The iPhone is a good bit of kit. Sure, it's got its flaws (no 3G, no custom ringtones) but for the average person that wants to trade in their iPod and Nokia for a single device, it'll do the job.
Most people are here because they use Pocket PC phones. The iPhone can't compete with them (however much it pretends it can). It's locked down, it's got limited email options and frankly, we're used to being able to customise our devices up the wazoo.
If Apple made a decent phone and HTC came out with a turkey, staying with them through loyalty would be foolish to the extreme.
You may show loyalty to a company, but at the end of the day, they're only interested in profits, and they will not reciprocate.

This poll is bound to be biased...
I mean, this is a WM developers forum. After the amount of work we put into the PPCs, most other phones(including the iPhone) look slightly,er, stupid?
On the other hand, I do wish HTC gave us 3in VGA screens. Come on HTC!, Arima does it.

Kaiser all the way.
What can the Iphone do that a Kaiser wont be able to do once the geniuses here at XDA-developers have a a tweak with the ROM. Isn't it only a matter of time before someone comes out with an implementation of the pinch/squeeze-zoom for photos afaik this is the only feature WM devices can't currently match.

iPhone i now going to have Enterprise support

Wow...I used one for a while and I liked it but lack of corporate email made me come back to HTC. I have had the opportunity to play with both side by side and the iPhone is just easier to work with....everything is smooth and works.
I love windows mobile phonews but I was always upgrading the firmware and trying different things to essentially get my kaiser to perform like an iPhone.
Whenever this does become available I'll be most likely defecting again.......
Now all I need is AD2P support so I can use my motorola S9 and I'm golden.
I wonder what this will do to sales for the Windows Mobile market and blackberry's.
Wonder if HTc won't do something stupid like make a good phone like the kaiser and then turnaround cripple it by not buying the licneses for the drivers needed it for it to perform as well as it could.

Kaiser forum?
No A2DP, 3G, MMS, and a bunch else...
I'll keep my Tilt.

Honestly 3G is something i very rarely use these days....i like a longer battery life. AD2P is only a software app away.
Oh yeah its not coming out until June.....basically around the time the 3G iPhone comes out.

3g is a must for me. I hate waiting web pages to load and youtube video to play.
Waiting for 3g iphone so I can test it out but I would rather buy the phone with WM7 when it's out.

My other issue with the iPhone is overall stability.
Right across from my cube at work, sits my friend, who is an Apple fan boy to the extreme... He spends almost his whole day using/playing with his iPhone, and I am constantly forced to endure his ranting and raving because Safari or Calender crash.
I would not consider myself a power user to the extremes of what the Kaiser is capable of, but at least it doesn't crash constantly under heavy use.

if one is to use phone network for data at all 3g is a must for me
another problem with iphone is that it dont support microSD or any type of flash even if it does have ok mb flash is good
and battery changing is an issue
last issue is programs wm have much much more both freeware and payware
good thing with iphones stk comming out
problem is that it's objectiveC which mean it will not be easy to port c++ and c# and such apps to iphone
another problem is that it seems that one can only develop those objectiveC apps from macs not pc's :S
other then that iphone is a coolcat

Now if only they can make iPhone compatible with ActiveSync!
For all the complaints people have with ActiveSync, I like it a LOT better than iTunes. I hate having to add everything to my iTunes library before I can copy it to the phone. I just want to mount it as a disk and copy my photos and MP3s to My Documents like I do with my Windows phones!
The iPhone is really nice in many ways, but I find Windows phones a lot more fun to play with, crappy QVGA screens, slow 200MHz IMAP processors, and all.

I really wanted the IPhone, but in the end I got the Touch Cruise...
My decisions was based on
1. No Copy/Paste
2. No Bluetooth Voice Dialing
3. No A2DP
4. No MMS
5. No removeable battery
5. No Flash support
6. No option to save anything from the browser
7. No video recording
8. No 3G
9. No MS Office editing
To me the Iphone in current state is more of a webbrowser with a Ipod, and then some phone and pda features thrown in. I have no doubt that once Apple fixes these glaring omisions, many of us will convert.

maybe because windows mobile always seem to have been the redheaded stepchild of ms
their evolution seem to be at the same pace af the nature counterparts
if we dident have developers for the platform it would be a stale boring even seen with business eyes
kinda like dos lived on as a rather text bases shell while atari st and comodore amiga had gui desktops even with icons which could be as large as you would want them to which even vista today dont support

Rudegar said:
maybe because windows mobile always seem to have been the redheaded stepchild of ms
their evolution seem to be at the same pace af the nature counterparts
if we dident have developers for the platform it would be a stale boring even seen with business eyes
kinda like dos lived on as a rather text bases shell while atari st and comodore amiga had gui desktops even with icons which could be as large as you would want them to which even vista today dont support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree 100%, its really sad that Windows Mobile pretty much looks and acts the same as it did almost 10 years ago when WinCe 1.0 was around. MS seems to lack the ability to innovate, they can only duplicate/improve upon. Even to the point of creating the Zune...at that point I could not for the life of me understand why MS decided to go that route instead of giving WM a serious multimedia overhall (or even doing both the Zume and a WM media overhall).
Now Apple beat them to the punch, and once again MS will be last in this foot race. Unfortunately for MS, Apple dealt a really really powerful blow with the IPhone. I have no doubt that with Apple's new Exchange Server features and the fact that they will eventually fix my above list of 9 IPhone omissions, MS will get buried.
Furthermore, as you said, what WM has going for it primarily is its developer base. Given the fact that the IPhone is selling so well, I have no doubt in my mind that the IPhone will eventually grow a larger developer base. That will be the nail in the coffin. WM7 will be too late to fix that.

"Now if only they can make iPhone compatible with ActiveSync!"
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/7177.html
"Microsoft has licensed ActiveSync to Apple so that now Windows Mobile is not necessary to get good connection to Microsoft Exchange including push email, in other words: Apple iPhone connects to Microsoft Exchange not worse than Windows Mobile"
lol ok so who is wearing the wire?!

Rudegar said:
"Now if only they can make iPhone compatible with ActiveSync!"
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/7177.html
"Microsoft has licensed ActiveSync to Apple so that now Windows Mobile is not necessary to get good connection to Microsoft Exchange including push email, in other words: Apple iPhone connects to Microsoft Exchange not worse than Windows Mobile"
lol ok so who is wearing the wire?!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL, yeah, I saw that headline yesterday... but I'm still skeptical.
Will it ONLY sync to Exchange? Or will it show up in Windows Mobile devices just like a PPC would, and can sync even to a local Outlook? I also really doubt it will allow one to drag & drop media into the iPhone via Windows Explorer like a Windows phone can. However, if it's possible for a programmer to connect to the ActiveSync driver (or kext or whatever they're called on the iPhone), then anything is possible.

A Windows mobile and an iPhone each have its' weaknesses and strengths. Owning both, they compliment each other (I use 2 different prepaid carriers so the monthly bills aren't that heavy). I used to think that I would never have any use for windows mobile, until I tried it. Now, I don't think I can ever be satisfied with a symbian phone. It was the same with the iPhone. You just have to own it to know its' strengths. Most of the weaknesses is addressed through unofficial native applications. Many may have different experiences but mine is pretty stable. My only gripe is with the non-replaceable battery. Looking at their other product line I don't think they will ever address that issue.

Here is my evaluation/2 cents
I have used both the Hermes and Iphone for side by side for quite sometime.
I finally came to the conclusion that the Iphone is the way to go, no questions about, although from time to time I do light up my Hermes and just stare at it for a while.
Ok...here is the deal. WM6 phones have more capabilities in terms of bells and whisTles but for all intensive purposes, the Iphone has just what I want and presented in a very convenient package.
1 - The Iphone screen size, resolution and quality and user interaction is unmatched by any wm6 device. Its just that simple.
2 - Yes wm6 devices may have 3G. Most of the time I use WIFI either at work or home. Even when outside my edge while slower than 3G is still very acceptable as I will not be in any hurry to look at webpages.
3G will cost you a fortune if you use it a lot.
Oh did I mention that the battery on my Hermes sucks big time with 3G on. Barely last a full day. Therefore for all day to day purposes WIFI and edge for me are fine.
3 - A2DP will be released through applications on the Iphone very soon.
4 - Explorer pocket edition is no match to Iphone's Safari. Its again just that simple
5 - Copying and pasting can be done on a jailbreaked Iphone. Its quite a simple matter these days.
6 - Why would I need micro sd when I got 8 gigs of storage? and now the new 16 gigs version.
7 - Removable battery? Why? My Iphones battery life just rocks! My hermes battery sucked! again no competition.
8 - Activesync will be supported on Iphone when the new firmware v2.0 hits this coming June. Oh did I mention that microsoft exchange will be supported too? But for now I am more than happy with my Iphone's email capabilities.
9 - No corporate email? Howcome? we have an exchange server at work and I get my email on my Iphone just like I did on my Hermes. and it is presented much better without the use of such other costly software such as Pocket Breeze.
10 - Camera? My Iphones 2 megpixel camera kicks ass compared to the my Hermes one. Even though it does not support zoom in natively. The main downside to the Iphones camera is it does not support video recording.
as you can see from the above Apple has created a beautiful and very practical peace of gadgetry and I just love it.
But again this is just my personal opinion.

etreby71, after using the iPhone exclusively for just a few days, I completely agree. The iPhone does not have as many features, but what it does do, it does much better than WM6. I also gave my wife an iPhone to replace her T-Mobile Dash. She LOVED the Dash, but it didn't take long for her to warm up to the iPhone and she likes it much better than the Dash now.
My only complaints with the iPhone:
1. iTunes is required to copy media/files to the phone. I don't like having to run a program to copy files to the phone. I wish it would show up under My Computer like WM phones do, with direct access to the disks and ability to copy photos/music/videos directly to "My Documents".
2. I don't know what the SDK will bring, but right now with a jailbroken phone, you need to use Installer to install programs from online sources. I would much rather have downloadable files that I copy directly to the file system and can execute via File Manager like WM6 and .cab files.
3. I still would like a MicroSD slot, in the WM world, I keep backups of all my .cab files there so if I have to do a hard reset, I can easily reinstall everything. With the iPhone, I have to use that annoying Installer and also remember what all I had installed. I hope the SDK changes this though.
4. GPS would be nice as well, athough I don't really need it as I still have my HTC Titan that can use TomTom.
5. Weight - it's heavy. Although the metal construction and weight makes it feel great to hold and feels of quality, it feels a little uncomfortable in my pants pocket. I'd be happy to trade it for a cheaper-feeling plastic version for less weight.
Overall though, I would have to say the iPhone is definitely a far slicker and more refined device than any WM6 phone.

I have an iphone and a orbit 2.
I prefer the orbit 2 not because of the interface because the iphone's interface is better but.
I can run satnav on my xda, not on iphone.
Install what i want not on iphone without installer and then you are limited to what you can do.
play music via bluetooth headphones, no a2dp on iphone until apple releases there bt headphones at a nice price...
no hsdpa, no 3g required in todays mobile age edge is not even the bleeding edge of technology.
No GPS so no satnav or other gps software dont make me laugh with google maps and triangulation.
its no were near as configurable and you cannot tweak it to your own tastes as you can the wm device.
Live with the iphone for a few months then you will find out its just a ipod that makes phone calls and surfs the web, gimmik and wears off after a while.
To have the stylus and your finger is the best all round input method, fingers alone are the iphones greatest strength and weakness, try typing a sms with two fingers and you will spend more time on the back space then type words, even with the complete.
I can type quicker iphone style keyboard on the xda with the stylus and just as quick with my fingers.
Email is a nightmare, deleting multiple messages, trying to use the left to right delete method usually ends up reading the messgae and not deleting it.
the only good thing with the iphone at the moment is the interface, until apple get there head from there axse and allow people to develop software to the level of the xda then it will never take the top spot.
Apple make good stuff, it looks good on the outside but deep down they build in too many limitations, if it was never jailbroken like they intended it would be a very good paper weight thats makes phones calls.
don't get me wrong i love the interface and i have spent a couple of hours getting my orbit 2 looking like one, and i liked the interface alot.
but at the end of the day its a gimmik that wears off, you will end up just using it as a phone and ipod unless apple release the leash and let the community do its thing.
My iphone is going on ebay and i am buying a 8gb nano for the car interface i put in.
When apple, put in a gps, hsdpa, open up the os to allow proper 3rd party apps, they i am sure i will go and buy one.
but until then the wm device is still top for the hardened pda user.
hope its does not sound like i hate the iphone because i don't but don't try and sell it as the best of the best sir !! because its not got that crown yet...

the overall killer for me for the iphone is its lack of a keyboard.. yea yea yea it has an all-touch keyboard but that's useless in my opinion. plus i watched myspace crash safari twice in a row. plus that itunes virus you have to install to move music. i will never install that. ever.

I have used both the Hermes and Iphone for side by side for quite sometime.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ertreby71, I can't figure out why you are comparing the iPhone to your Hermes. At least make it a fair comparison lets say a Touch Cruise vs an iPhone or a TytnII vs an iPhone. You'll quickly find that your advantages start to fall prey to many disadvantages that I had listed on page 1. If given the choice, I'd buy my over Touch Cruise ever time, until maybe the 2nd gen iPhone comes around and Apple makes the phone less restrictive and puts in the rest of the pretty basic features its missing.

I think for many people, the disadvantages of the iPhone are really a non-issue. Many don't use or need any of what the iPhone lacks that were listed on the 1st page. I know very little of that actually affects my usage. The all-touch keyboard is actually rather easy to get used to. I still make mistakes and am not nearly as accurate on it as I am on the Titan's keyboard, but it's really better than I expected.
What really impresses me most about the iPhone is the hardware. The HVGA display is simply stunning. The detail is very impressive and makes the QVGA on my HTC devices look downright crude in comparison.
The smoothness and intuitiveness of the UI is also very impressive. You can tell there is a lot of processing power behind the device. I would really like to see someone write an emulator that runs WM6 for the iPhone just for grins.

I would buy an iPhone if you could buy a truely Sim free version that you could upgrade the Firmware as and when Apple release new Firmware, instead of having an iPhone that is open to upgrades if you pay 260.00 for the phone and be locked to a 35.00 a Month 18 Month contract on O2.
Roland

Tilt vs Iphone - which is better ?

i dont know if this is the right place to post because you guys will obviously be biased towards the tilt..
what do u think , should i buy a Tilt or the current Iphone ?
i like to browse the net thru wifi quite a bit, check emails. also while talking voice quality is important, signal strenth is important too.
any suggestions is appreciated specially if someone has owned both of these 2. thx

btw i have read other threads and googled other comparisions but there werent too much opinions on this topic.
the few i saw said they liked Tilt better.

okay i dont own a tilt, so thought id post.
i prefer the tilt,
in my opinion it looks nicer, is easier to text (with the keyboard), the hackability is excellent (ROMS) and applications are plentiful.

tseten said:
btw i have read other threads and googled other comparisions but there werent too much opinions on this topic.
the few i saw said they liked Tilt better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure what you mean about "weren't too much opinions" but this forum is full of opinions about the iPhone and Tilt and you will find some very heated opinions to boot.
On I side note: I have the Tilt, my wife has the 8525, and my Brother in-law has the iPhone. Each His (Or Her) own....
IMO ~ You may have just reopened a big can off &%#* as this forum is not a iPhone forum and iPhone or related threads generally get bashed on. Start a Poll!!!!

i have heard the Tilt is fat and bulky compared to the sleek Iphone....
and the Tilts touch screen scratches easily and have to use stylus... whereas iphone screen is scratch resistant... i think.
but ofcourse I like HTC, and i like Windows Mobile6 ...i currently own a different HTC phone with wm6 custom rom. so before yall think abt bashing me, im a custom WM6 Rom fanboy...
kingsizeriz said:
okay i dont own a tilt, so thought id post.
i prefer the tilt,
in my opinion it looks nicer, is easier to text (with the keyboard), the hackability is excellent (ROMS) and applications are plentiful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

i have both and i love the tilt better
iphone after a while gets repetitive and boring
tilt theres more to discover by the day

Well, if the iPhone ran Windows Mobile it would be a close call, even with all the WM "limitations", it is still far greater and customizable then the iPhone interface, in which basically... you can swap icons.
Plus Gps, 3G and whatever else the iPhone misses.
iPhone has a bigger and more resistant screen and that's pretty much all I can see about iPhone having better.

I think comparing this version of the iphone and tilt isnt close without 3g and gps. But if you don't use those who knows. The iphone is defintely thinner and sleeker. But the wm phone is much more functiona.
Skyfire browses the web just as well as the iphones and handles all flash content, can't beat that.

well i would get tilt myself but i got piles of 3th party progs which is wm
and want something better then edge and want flash support
but i do think iphone looks better but then i never were a big fan of the looks of kaiser

get both and then decide which one u want and then sell the other one.

I have both, here's my opinion
Tilt
Pro's:
3G
GPS
WMWifiRouter & tethering
Youtube
MicroSD Slot
Easy to sawp sim card
Exchange/Direct Push
Quake I & II
Microsoft Mobile Office
Con's:
Battery life
size (lets face it, compared to the iphone the tilt is a brick)
video issues
slow at times
can't get NES roms to work properly (thats for me atleast)
WM is designed to be used with a stylus, I know, touchflow TRIES tomake up for it, but falls short imo
OEM headset sucks
iPhone:
Pro:
easy to use
video playback is great
surfing the internet is quick and fun (despite the 2.5 modem)
Installer app is really nice (if u hack/unlock ur iphone)
the ipod functions are nice
great ebook reader imo
Accelerometers
screen size & quality
multi touch
threaded sms out the box
solid feel to it
size
comes with a cradle and nice headset
Con:
2.5G modem
No tehtering
no gps
no video recorder (but can be downloaded via installer)
no exchange
calander sucks
keyboard sucks
iPhone plans suck (with AT&T)
App icons on homescreen are static, meaning it wont update the weather on the front screen, u have to open the app to see the weather
screen does not recognize a stylus
easy to scratch
I had my tilt first, and I loved it, and thought it was the best phone ever... I just got my iphone roughly a month ago, and I fell in love all over again. Dont get me wrong though, I wouldnt say anyone of the phones is superior to the other... They are 2 different styles of phones, one is a buisness type personal manager, and the other is a entertainment device. I love the tilts connectivity, I travel a lot for work, and I got to school at night. Its nice to be able to whip out the tilt, connect to the internet and share the connection with my laptop. Also during my travels, if i get lost, TomTom will always direct me to my destination. The iphone is great when going out a night, its slim shape allows me to have in my pocket, for my tilt i have to use a belt clip/pouch.
So there ya go... You just need to make sure the phone your getting suits your needs... the tilt suits my business life, the iphone my personal life... I wish there was a device that did both in 1.. maybe the next HTC device or the 3G iphone will cover all bases... we'll see

tseten said:
...whereas iphone screen is scratch resistant...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope I can confirm it does scratch.. I have a fat scratch middle of my screen

I'm a new user here which means my opinion doesn't count as much, ;-), but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyways. I'm looking for a "one device to rule them all" type thing. The Kaiser and the iPhone 1.0 are close. However, I think the phones that'll make me happy are either the TyN IV or the iPhone 3.0. The above poster is right that the WM6 isn't great at entertainment/personal apps and the iPhone isn't great at business apps. In the race of the Tyn IV and the iPhone 3.0, I think that Apple will win because their interface is so much more polished, integrated, and smooth.
Oh, I just got a Kaiser on Friday, I've been using an iPod for years, but don't have an iPhone.

A Man's Phone
I have a tilt and my wife has an iphone. So that is easy , the Tilt is a man"s phone and the iphone is a girl's phone. Just Kidding (kinda) Higherbeing had all the technicals right. I run a business totally (mostly) on my tilt. From editing documents on the go, to planning my day, to finding my way to jobsites(GPS)to organizing contact and the constant flow of emails and I do it all at 3G speed , I could not see me with an iphone.My wife texts her friends, listens to music at the gym, gets a email or two from work, shows everyone pictures of the family, watches a youtube video or two checks the weather occasionally and laughs at my stylus. Like they say, to each his/her own.

oh yea forgot mobile office as one of the pro's on the tilt...
heh denco sounds like we have simular life styles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaZIs4oN4yA
http://www.chinabestmobile.com/listE.asp?ProdId=0097

tseten said:
i dont know if this is the right place to post because you guys will obviously be biased towards the tilt..
what do u think , should i buy a Tilt or the current Iphone ?
i like to browse the net thru wifi quite a bit, check emails. also while talking voice quality is important, signal strenth is important too.
any suggestions is appreciated specially if someone has owned both of these 2. thx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought an iPhone for my wife and a Tilt for myself a few weeks later. At times I've regretted not getting the iPhone in part because:
It has a slightly larger screen
It has a slimmed down version of iTunes.
The touch screen gestures are very intuitive and work out of the box.
There's a steeper learning curve for the Tilt. However, once you get a handle on the basics (thanks xda!!) it can be a more powerful device for a few reasons:
3G is a lot better than Edge.
Built in GPS is awesome.
Works with a lot more bluetooth devices.
There's a lot more software out there for Windows Mobile than for the iPhone.
The slide out keyboard can really come in handy for those longer emails.
Office mobile and built-in full featured exchange sync
Some of these advantages can be had if you unlock the iphone and use FreeBSD/MacOS X software directly.
If you're like me and you're mainly interested in having the benefits of a computer in a very small form factor (one you can carry around - one device to rule them all so to speak) I'd go with the Tilt. The iPhone is wonderful but it's also kind of constraining.

I think this sums up my thoughts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKsJDLj4nDI
Plus the Tilt is hotter in this video.

thanks for all the post guys... i think the Tilt is the right fone for me.... even though im using Tmobile so 3G phone is useless.
i like the GPS with TomTom feature too...
i might also buy the Iphone later if they drop the price... which they might since the new iphone is coming out very soon.

tseten said:
thanks for all the post guys... i think the Tilt is the right fone for me.... even though im using Tmobile so 3G phone is useless.
i like the GPS with TomTom feature too...
i might also buy the Iphone later if they drop the price... which they might since the new iphone is coming out very soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem. Tilt has more options.
Also, I laugh at your statement of Apple dropping their price. My company unfortunately uses some Apples in its Design Department. I've never seen the price go down. When they announce a new "upgrade" The old one sells at the same price, or is dropped $20, while the new one sells for $50 or more over. Then when the old one is sold out, the new ones price drops down to the Old ones price. Just in time for it to start all over again. In fact the price on iMacs has gone UP incrementally.

Kaiser/Tilt worthy upgrade?

Any Tilt or Kaiser owners plan to upgrade to the Touch Pro 2? Does it seem like it would be a significant upgrade? I'm curious to what you fellow Tilt/Kaiser owners think...

I have the Tilt and have not upgraded to the Fuze. I was waiting for the next big thing that ATT was potentially was going to bring over and it seem like this is it. I love the device's design in every aspect; looks amazing physicaly. What i don't like is that they stuck it with a 3mp camera (and removed flash!). I absolutely love the 3.6" screen. Basically, i'm pretty sure i'll be upgrading (i saved my contract upgrade and rejected the Fuze for this reason).

Yeah, I'm going to buy Touch Pro2, the reasons why, larger screen, better hardware, 5-row keyboard, looks very very cool, more finger-friendly.

iphone. if lack of a hw keyboard is not a deal breaker. After owning 2 winmo phones (currently using a tilt) and modding many other peoples iphones, i can honestly say that the iphone is superior in usability/apps/stability. after drooling for a touch diamond and then hearing my friend say its laggy after he bought it, was a real disappointment. Microsoft is really behind the curve in the mobile sector. Thinking about selling my tilt for iphone now. Might wait till winmo 7 to come out before purchasing another winmo phone. For the record i'm a pc guy and i think apple products/fans our generally pretentious and kinda douche-ie (not all though).

Not sure about the Touch Pro2. I rarely .. if ever use my keyboard. I am waiting on the HTC Topaz for ATT..... drool.

I'm probably gonna go for the TP2. 800x480 screen!
They only issue i see with the device is that they've removed the d-pad.

HTC looks like they've put every good feature into this device, from FM Radio to TV Out. It looks perfect, and although a faster processor or a DPAD wouldn't hurt. And a 6.5 upgrade sounds good as well. I am certainly getting this phone.
Dave

good thing i passed on the fuze too...The Touch pro 2 will definitely be up there on my next phone list...And this will probably be the real successor to the tytn ii...I think it also matches the specs we had a few months back on the then phantom "TILT 2" that never showed up...until now...

TP 2.... is it worth sniffing at?
Does anyone know if it'll have proper 3D and 2 D DirectX and Direct Draw drivers included? I'm not wanting a HTC customised menu so much as full native support of the built in hardware within the operating system and parts thereof such as Pocket Mediaplayer itself. I'd like to use video playback without having to slash the frame rates and/or resolution as I have to with my Kaiser (even under TCPMP).
I'm concerned to read that although it has GPS support, it doesn't appear to list what software is provided to use this in the UK/Europe. Does this mean that it could be the TP all over again with HTC refusing to acknowledge any GPS problems that may crop up? Without a tried and tested native GPS app bundled with the device, it won't be one for me.

I'm very tempted - but I think I'll have to wait until I actually can put my hands on one in a shop to decide. I fear I will find it too large and/or thick for my liking. The Tilt is thick, but small. The iphone is large to the point I feel mixed with regard to the size in the pocket/screen comfort balance, but at least is thin. The TP2 will be large AND thick. And it loses the DPAD indeed, and I use that a lot

only a few people think it would be a worthy upgrade?

What's that saying, once bitten....
timdeien1979 said:
only a few people think it would be a worthy upgrade?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If those who currently have Kaisers (or TPs for that matter) get a feeling of déjà vu with the 'finished' product and its shortcomings (video drivers, keyboard performance, GPS time to lock and any lag, important bits/features missed out etc) then yes, you are correct. HTC need to learn from its mistakes and provide a product that actually meets peoples needs fully and reliably if they want those who've already been stung by them to part with cash on a new HTC product. Many people here have already said they'll never buy another HTC product due to all the problems they've had so you get an idea of the extent of feeling about such things!

I'm planning to get the TP2
- Higher resolution big and wide screen
- Larger battery
- Faster processor
- More internal memory
- 5 row keyboard
- TV out
- USB OTG
- New TOUCH FLO 3D with larger soft menu screens
- WM 6.5 (when HTC will make it available)
I'll miss:
- D-pad
- Jog wheel
- Buttons!

Flying Kiwi said:
If those who currently have Kaisers (or TPs for that matter) get a feeling of déjà vu with the 'finished' product and its shortcomings (video drivers, keyboard performance, GPS time to lock and any lag, important bits/features missed out etc) then yes, you are correct.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or, there are people like me who are really happy with the Kaiser, and for whom it would take something really good to warrant a change. As said, I'll see the TP2 when it's there, but until then I don't plan to change at all.

If the cookers start cooking good roms and it can be unlocked ok then yes it looks lovely