Database Develop

Tytn II poor performance

I have upgraded from the Tytn to the Tytn II.
With the faster processor I really expected much faster response bt this does not seem to be the case.
Sometimes you tap the X in the top right hand corner and you sit and wait while it decides to exit the application.
Touch the top right hand icon to see running apps, cick stop all, allthe apps clear from the list but the window still stays open forever almost as if its hung.
Try and answer a call and there is an obvious delay between touching the answer button and the call actually being answered.
I have a no name brand 1GB micro SD card in the Tytn II.
This poor performance seems intermittent.
Any clues?
The phone is running ROM 1.56.05.5 Radio 1.27.12.11

samsat said:
I have upgraded from the Tytn to the Tytn II.
With the faster processor I really expected much faster response bt this does not seem to be the case.
Sometimes you tap the X in the top right hand corner and you sit and wait while it decides to exit the application.
Touch the top right hand icon to see running apps, cick stop all, allthe apps clear from the list but the window still stays open forever almost as if its hung.
Try and answer a call and there is an obvious delay between touching the answer button and the call actually being answered.
I have a no name brand 1GB micro SD card in the Tytn II.
This poor performance seems intermittent.
Any clues?
The phone is running ROM 1.56.05.5 Radio 1.27.12.11
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try one of the cooked ROMs and you should see improvements.

Also processor is not faster. It has exactly the same chip as TyTN.
Just double the RAM and double the storage.
And by looking at your signature you have been using cooked/hacked ROM's in original TyTN. I find these improve performance much more than the original stock ROM's.
Do as mentioned above and install a new ROM. Dutty's Touch with .NET 3.5 is my personal pref at the mo.

silent_killa said:
Also processor is not faster. It has exactly the same chip as TyTN.
Just double the RAM and double the storage.
And by looking at your signature you have been using cooked/hacked ROM's in original TyTN. I find these improve performance much more than the original stock ROM's.
Do as mentioned above and install a new ROM. Dutty's Touch with .NET 3.5 is my personal pref at the mo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey mate, that's not true.
TyTN II has a completely different type of processor. It has the same speed (400Mhz), but that won't say it isn't faster. This new Qualcomm processor has to be much faster(it is faster). Only problem is that the video isn't hardware supported, and that can make it feel slower when running some apps.

silent_killa said:
Also processor is not faster. It has exactly the same chip as TyTN.
Just double the RAM and double the storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You really should do your homework before spouting off and confusing people. Both phones run @400Mhz, but that's about the only similarity. The two CPU's are very different. I read on here awhile back that the Qualcomm CPU is actually very similar to a dual-core CPU in that it has two distinct processors on it.
Hermes:
Processor: 400 MHz Samsung
Memory: 128 MB ROM/128 MB RAM
Kaiser:
Processor: 400 MHz Qualcomm MSM7200
Memory: 256 MB ROM/128 MB RAM

Thanks for the replies.
It seems that the II has the same performance problems as the I.
Makes you wonder if HTC were listening before they released the II.
Looks like I will have to make use of one of the cooked ROMs.It just amazes me that the users have to fix the shortcomings of the phone!!!

I think theyhave increased the cpu speed and memory to compensate for the lack of direct draw.......just a conspiracy

Lol!
I used to own a TyTN as well.....
Got a bit confused since we were working on enabling the GPS One part of the chip for the TyTN a while back. Thought that this was all part of a single integral QualComm chip.
Still, raw Mhz is the same anyways....

samsat said:
I have upgraded from the Tytn to the Tytn II.
With the faster processor I really expected much faster response bt this does not seem to be the case.
Sometimes you tap the X in the top right hand corner and you sit and wait while it decides to exit the application.
Touch the top right hand icon to see running apps, cick stop all, allthe apps clear from the list but the window still stays open forever almost as if its hung.
Try and answer a call and there is an obvious delay between touching the answer button and the call actually being answered.
I have a no name brand 1GB micro SD card in the Tytn II.
This poor performance seems intermittent.
Any clues?
The phone is running ROM 1.56.05.5 Radio 1.27.12.11
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What other/software/utilities do you have installed? I'd definitely agree that you try a few other cooked ROMs till you find one that "flies" for you...

Nothing else installed, just got the phone yesterday.
Which cooked ROMs are the most stable and are there any special precautions to prevent bricking the phone?

I have a STOCK HTC TyTn and a STOCK HTC TyTnII in front of me.
The TyTynII out performs the basic TyTn in all repects. BT works PERFECT and (one thing people forget!) Media player works in standby mode as with the Wizard.
Remember, 'Kaiser' is the generic term for the model.
Many variants are out there and the 'Tilt' seems to be a very cut-down version with a poor ROM and loads of carrier bloatware. You also have to remember that because of the Broadcomm v Qualcomm lawsuit in the US(which is STILL ongoing) certain aspects of these models have been disabled to apease the lawyers!
Many soapbox activists on this forum do not understand whats really going on in the US. Blame your own legal system for the phones faults!

I can't complain about my Tytn II performance (ok the video thing, but mentioned in 100 other threads). I have no problems to close Apps and accept phone calls, ok on the phonecalls it depends if the phone was in sleep before the call, then it has 1-2 seconds to get completly rdy, but that's not a big deal.
Well I also think that the Qualcom lawsuit had/has a big influence on the preformance of the actual firmware... but i expect some improvements in the future.

How does one go about selecting a rom, then installing?
How do I keep my current info,settings and applications?
Is it similar to a hard reset, where I would simply restore a previous backup and carry on?
thanks!

Farsquidge said:
You also have to remember that because of the Broadcomm v Qualcomm lawsuit in the US(which is STILL ongoing) certain aspects of these models have been disabled to apease the lawyers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You seem to have inside information about this. Would you know exactly what has been disabled?
You also mentioned that your TyTN II outperforms the TyTN in all aspects. Does this include 3D and video acceleration? I.e. have you tried 3D games and would say that these play much faster on the TyTN II? And how about video? Can you play video files without experiencing problems with audio/video sync (which I see on my TyTN II but didn't see on the JASJAM) and poor performance when playing videos with larger frames than 320x240? And how about poor quality drivers for sound that affect the overall performance of the device? This forced me to disable audio feedback on screen taps as the sound would make the device more sluggish to respond to taps.
. . .
Isn't it ironic that HTC chose the Qualcomm chip even though the Samsung processor was fully supported by drivers and provided all features required by the TyTN II, and despite Qualcomm's legal problems and the threats from the US government of stopping the sale of all Qualcomm-based devices in the US, and after having made this choice it's not even properly supported?!
Doesn't this make you think that there were some hanky-panky going on backstage? What I am implying here is that Qualcomm bribed HTC management to choose their chip.

CorruptedSanity said:
How does one go about selecting a rom, then installing?
How do I keep my current info,settings and applications?
Is it similar to a hard reset, where I would simply restore a previous backup and carry on?
thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the Wiki. Think of it as installing a new OS on your computer. It will wipe everything out. I wouldn't recommend restoring backups between different ROM versions. It would be like restoring a full backup from WinXP w/no SP to a machine that had SP2.

Does the interface and TomTom lag affect only some series of Kaisers?

I know that it might sound like a mindless rant, but hear me out on this one please.
There is a thread in the TyTN I section and there are entries in the wiki which suggest that different series of Herms had different problems. There also seem to be different Kaisers out there that have different hardware and have more or less lag. Unwired4 is trying to link that to the VSBenchmark score, while I hope that it can be linked to the series number.
The serial number seems to be in format of HTnnn??nnnnn XTnn where ?? are letters and n's are numbers. The wiki entry only uses the HTnnn part, and I believe that the XTnn part is probably the country or area or factory or something, but could be useful if included.
As for definitions of what is laggy and not laggy performance, which is hard to define, the following videos will be good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz1J6h4rq1U
Not laggy switching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=recxf0f4twY
Laggy switching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1rzCAmpt9s
Not laggy TomTom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4
Laggy TomTom (also not laggy TomTom on a Magician)
If you do not use TomTom, please state that. I am not sure if CoPilot has the same problems or not.
Also, please note that the issue discussed in this thread is not the lack of drivers or slow video playback. And please compare your Kaiser to the ones in videos, as it is crucial that we use some standards of measuring "lag", as it is basically measured by the rule of the thumb to build some statistics and possibly find out which series are affected by the issue. We are not trying to link the "level of happiness" to the serial number like some peopl pointed out in the "gruesome" thread, as it involves too many factors such as expectancies, value, money paid, comparison, and specific usage of the phone. Also, if you had the motherboard replaced and your device performs better now, but still has the old SN, please state the way it performed before the fix.
The SN is written under the battery, and it might also be a good idea not to show the last 5 digits of the main section of it.
I will start with the branding, my own SN, country of origin, date of purchase, presence of lag.
Updates (ordered by series number):
HT735GB
Laggy switching, laggy TomTom - HTC TyTN II (Russia, Dec07)
HT735
Possible laggy switching, non-laggy TomTom - (UK?)
HTC736GB
Laggy switching, laggy TomTom - (Netherlands, Aug07)
HT748GB
Non-laggy switching, non-laggy TomTom - o2 XDA Stellar (UK, Dec 07)
HT802
Possible laggy switching, non-laggy Garmin - o2 XDA Stellar (UK?)

Laggy switching and TomTom
HTC736GB (Netherlands) august '07

I have the switching lag, but TomTom seems to run perfectly.
Full res DivX are great too playing in the latest Coreplayer.

bluchrome said:
I have the switching lag, but TomTom seems to run perfectly.
Full res DivX are great too playing in the latest Coreplayer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which series code do you have, Bluchrome?
Yeah, I gotta get myself that latest CorePlayer too.

Mikeer said:
I know that it might sound like a mindless rant, but hear me out on this one please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mikeer said:
Well, the device I have was purchased in early December, but that was in a small city in eastern Russia, so it is most probably from some early series.
I remember your thread about the fact that your Kaiser performs fine when it comes to GUI, and it was probably the first time I realised that there are some series that are just plain slow and the ones that are more or less fast. DO you use TomTom? If you do, does it perform like the Magician, or like the Kaiser in the famous video?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Figured I would reply to you on your own thread, and keep the topics focused!
o2 XDA Stellar
HT748GB (UK, Dec 07)
No lag on either
FWIW, I made a video of my phones performance in responce to yours. Sorry about the poor quality, but you can see the performance difference!
Mine performs more like the Magician and if you watch the thing thorugh, you can see my screen switch rate is substantially faster than yours. Hopefully from that video you can see why until I saw yours I was thinking that people were moaning over nothing and asking the question "How much quicker do you want it?!"
I'm certainly with you in thinking there is something to the build version and the fact that o2 UK held back on launching their Kaiser varient for a couple of months!

Steve-C said:
Figured I would reply to you on your own thread, and keep the topics focused!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the input
And your Stellar really does does work better than my TyTN, so far we can assume that 735 and 736 series are faulty and 748 should be ok
A bit too early to draw conclusions though

I picked up a tytn II (kaiser) today. I charged for about 5 hours. picked up my location with seconds with tomtom. but updating is real slow!

Mikeer said:
Thanks for the input
And your Stellar really does does work better than my TyTN, so far we can assume that 735 and 736 series are faulty and 748 should be ok
A bit too early to draw conclusions though
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HT735
Up to 1 second to orientate screen.
Tomtom no sign of the lag.
However the above is variable. Regardless of running programs, the screen rotate can vary from virtually instant to 3 seconds.
Tomtom on a rare occassion will appear to completely freeze and then jump. But I think that's likely more to do with dropping a satellite or two. Otherwise I have not had the slow re-draw or laggy behaviour (per the utube videos)
So yes, a bit too early, but worth gathering more data. Perhaps it's not the serial that's the key but qualcomm batch numbers. Then again we are talking dozens of variables here.
Mike

Tomtom on a rare occassion will appear to completely freeze and then jump. But I think that's likely more to do with dropping a satellite or two.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its unlikely this is the problem, I had a nokia running tom tom and no such problems. The Kaiser has a very good GPS chipset and Tom tom should cope.
I do think all the HTC plugins and and all the gimmick touch flo stuff is a large part of the problem. It looks like on mike processor usage is very high.

mikechannon said:
HT735
Up to 1 second to orientate screen.
Tomtom no sign of the lag.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, now it seems that even the same devices within a series perform differently.

That is an interesting observation =)
My switching isn't as slow as some videos, but no where near as fast as the one you provided (running stock AT&T rom).
I haven't fully tested GPS Nav yet. I got Destinator on the way (I heard it's a pain to use, but it apparently has the best and most updated maps of Mexico )
But in general video playback, NES and SNES Emulators has its ups and downs. Sometimes running smoother and others running choppy compared to my old PXA255 / 64 RAM ipaq wm5 ppc which still lies around.

HT802
mikechannon said:
Up to 1 second to orientate screen.
However the above is variable. Regardless of running programs, the screen rotate can vary from virtually instant to 3 seconds.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ditto, although I have Garmin rather than TomTom :s

mikechannon said:
HT735
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mike, I notice you say your on the o2 network. Do you have the Stellar or an unbranded Kaiser?
Maybe you blew the HT735 theory out of the water, but the one about the Stellar being better could still be valid....

I have an O2 XDA Stellar and I've been doing a few quick tests this morning and I've come up with this.
If there are programs running in the background, the portrait-landscape switch takes about a second. Switching back to portrait takes just a bit longer (going back to portrait always seems to take longer)
However, if I close all programs beforehand, the switching from portrait to landscape is practically instant with only a slight delay switching back. It is worth noting at this point that I have the sound disabled for the screen switching.
Tomtom is smooth in both Portrait and landscape modes and a video compressed in MP4 format at 320x240 plays perfectly.
BUT, I have also noticed the intermittent audio lag problem while playing music on it (regardless of player used) and a very definite stutter in either ringtones or text/email alerts. This makes me think that perhaps that when the audio hardware is initializing to playback, it may be hogging the cpu slowing the rest of the device down which could be contributory to some of the issues noted in this forum.
I'm not suggesting that the audio bug is responsible for all of the Tytn II's issues but, in my case, it certainly looks like it's playing a part in it.
Anyone else come across this?

Slow Rendering TomTom
I think it is worth pointing out that TomTom is a lot quicker & smoother if you remove all of the POIs.
I realised this when installing it on a friends symbian phone & wondered why it was so much faster than my "powerful Windows Mobile device". I didn't put the POIs on because the MMC I was working with only had enough room for the Speed Cams.
Now I keep all of my POIs on my MicroSD in a seperate folder close to the map folder so, before I plan a journey, if I need a POI I will just copy the 2 required files into the Map folder before starting up TomTom. The difference is quite massive if you ask me.
Maybe you are already aware of this, and I apologise if this is old news, but it seems people are still having problems with lagging & I don't, so thought this might help. Granted, having all of the POIs on (or as many as it will allow you to use at any one time) is useful if you're in a hurry, but IMO you pay a high price for that convenience in lagging video rendering.
I have tried it without the Speed Cams too & it's even better, but I cant do without those warnings on there, so I can deal with a slight loss in performance for the sake of them.
Give it a go and see what you think. If this was unknown until now, I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
NOW LETS GET THESE VIDEO DRIVERS SORTED!

really really really laggy switching.
Tomtom is somewhere in between the two videos.
Mine's a UK O2 XDA Stellar with stock ROM.

HT743G0 USA AT&T Tilt
Early November 07
mild lag switching, no lag on Tomtom.
The lag is contributed to the ROM you have and how many software you've installed. The original AT&T ROM lags BIG TIME like in this video. I was pissed. Then I flashed the ROM to Alex's clean multimedia. After I flashed the ROM I was so amazed at how fast it switches. It switches the screen just as fast as this video After the flash, I started to install tons of software. So far I've intsalled about 116mb of software into the phone with 36mb free. Now the switching takes about 1-2 seconds each way. I can live with that but not no 3-5 second lag.
As for TomTom (version 6.010 US and Canada map) I dont have the lag. But when it's turning I get tearing once in a while, the same tearing during video playback.

HTC737GB
T-Mobile Vario III
Lags in everything, today, switching, TomTom (You've all seen my video!)
Today it's taking 7 seconds to rotate! :S

A clarification on missing drivers - my thoughts - you won't like them.

Well, i was here from the beginning. I didn't start the petition, but i posted it and asked for a sticky. I was one of the first few that posted about the lack of 3D. I'm very angry about my slow crappy Kaiser. But...
A BIG BUT:
- The "drivers" would NOT solve the slow video we see in TCPMP, since TCPMP decompresses in software. And any release of CorePlayer has the same performance. Maybe one released after the "drivers" are installed would be better.
- The "drivers" would NOT score higher in SPB benchmark.
We don't actually need "drivers". We need a build of WM6 (WM6.1) which is using a better SDK (libraries) from Qualcomm.
This is what i think needs fixing:
- Accurate VSync - so we don't get tearing anymore - this may also solve some slow programs.
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
BTW: the 4.3k score on graphics that the Kaiser got, and any other graphic benchmark is VERY VERY FAKE - they say 40+ FPS in some test, but i see 5 FPS on my screen (trust me, i know, i'm a render programmer in the game industry, i have an eye for these). What is actually happening is that the program says: draw this on the screen, and the hardware says "done" about 400 times a second, and it actually didn't render anything - this is what i mean by a good VSync.
I say this again - if we had 100% working drivers on our Kaiser right now, and you try them with TCPMP -> no difference, trust me. If you run Quake for PPC -> no difference, again. You would probably never know you had HW acceleration. The 2D HW part would be noticed in the Windows GUI (maybe) and in some programs (very few - those that use DirectDraw, and use it correctly)
Maybe we should try asking for what i said - no tearing, better sound, and maybe we'd get it.
Please, please don't post if you don't understand what i'm saying. This is for the big boys

agreed many of the ports of old 3d games like duke3d, doom1-2 quake1-3 .....
would most likely never benefit from a real driver as they are old games which
dident even benefit from 3d cards in pcs
so thinking that a driver will make anything faster is likely to cause tears
plus the ati powers of the kaiser and others is really not much of a 3d powerhouse like the geforce counterpart it does add some 2d speed up but thats about it
which is prob why a money aware company like qualcomm would bother to pay ati
the pretty small fee for their license
but at the end of the day htc are cheapskates

I understand your points and believe that everything you said is true. (Specially about the video drivers not solving the slow video problem).
However I don't see any problems with the audio on the Kaiser (at least on mine).
But yes, I also say that we need a better OS implementation for the Qualcomm chip.
Should we start a new (and proven ineffective) petition to HTC?
Cheers!
RayanMX

what borthers me is that htc seem to be happy enough to be the biggest wm device maker rather then really making an efford to compeat with iphone they seem to sleep on the bed of roses that iphone not being that available outside of us and not being 3g or having sd interface
kinda sad imho :S

Oh, and the funny part is that if they would have fixed the tearing and the DirectDraw bug before releasing it, nobody would have cared about the 3D HW not being used. Well, maybe me, omikr0n, and ten other guys would have cared, but it would have been forgotten in a few weeks.
The 2D DirectDraw was noticed only because TCPMP and CorePlayer have the option to use DDraw. And it could have been fixed - CorePlayer devs found a way around it.
In the end this is just a rushed device, using a cheap (and slow) platform - 400Mhz means nothing, it behaves like a 300Mhz Intel or 240Mhz TI OMAP - not a fact, just an analogy.

Just have one comment about the sound...
did you try the sound using any stereo speakers other than the mono speaker on the device itself? it is actually one of the finest and cleanest audio output i've heard for a while, i compared to ipod and tilt's sound was MUCH better

RPG0 said:
This is what i think needs fixing:
- Accurate VSync - so we don't get tearing anymore - this may also solve some slow programs.
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
BTW: the 4.3k score on graphics that the Kaiser got, and any other graphic benchmark is VERY VERY FAKE - they say 40+ FPS in some test, but i see 5 FPS on my screen (trust me, i know, i'm a render programmer in the game industry, i have an eye for these). What is actually happening is that the program says: draw this on the screen, and the hardware says "done" about 400 times a second, and it actually didn't render anything - this is what i mean by a good VSync.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Being a developer for such a long time, I feel you.
We should release our own benchmark program that we know won't get nop'ed out by some other timing code if we can't get to the vsync register.
The WM default midi soundbank is still crap as well as playback. My SE T610, and all my Palm Pilots playback midi with much more clarity. I know it's not the hardware because the alternative GSPlayer+ MIDI player plays the same samples just fine.
What can be learnt from the Apple II days is to just vote with the wallet. Fighting the hardware maker is wasted time and effort. Only complaint that gets their attention is a walking wallet.
edit: you know, we used to rawbuffer most of our graphics on the same resolution screen (320x240) on a vastly inferior CPU. No reason we can't try to do the same on the Kaiser with a super ARMv6 asm optimized library. We just need to shut up the OS from stealing so many cycles.
Of course I'm only thinking of 2D gaming without video decoding, and only MIDI music since those are the least CPU intensive.

ahussam said:
Just have one comment about the sound...
did you try the sound using any stereo speakers other than the mono speaker on the device itself? it is actually one of the finest and cleanest audio output i've heard for a while, i compared to ipod and tilt's sound was MUCH better
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
I forgot I had an iPod since I got my Tilt. With an 8gb SD who needs one?

How do you come to the conclusion that drivers wouldn't help DDraw applications like CorePlayer and such?
Devices with proper drivers seem to work just fine with DirectDraw and they are able to create a proper HW overlay etc.
Granted it would not solve decoding of video, that's given. But it could/would/should surely speed up the actual rendering.
Writing to the dedicated video RAM instead of creating a framebuffer in normal system RAM should be faster. Hardware overlay should be faster than just using the standard rendering paths etc.
As for games: of course they won't be sped up unless the actual game supports D3D or OGL. Most games don't (even "fancy" 3d ones) but some do, such as COD.
Also, a proper DDI driver can and will speed up 2D rendering in general. Doing simple stuff like rendering just a menu is WAY too slow right now and that's unrelated to vsync. (There's certainly a world of difference between lacking the smootheness and tearing "freeness" of proper vsync and just performance in general, it shouldn't take a full second to draw a simple screen in WM if no other operations are active.)
As for sound I did have those problems but as of the latest 1.65.14.06 radio my audio is pretty much top notch. Sounds just as good as my ipod or my creative zen players and a whole lot better than the integrated soundcard of my laptop (realtek hd audio).
That's both during calls but especially when listening to music.
Of course with the bundled headphones or even with HTCs "high end" headphones it all sounds like crap. With a proper set of of in ear plugs (I've a "cheap" Shure set and a more expensive Sony one and they both sound simply awesome.)
Actually I really like using it as an audio player as it supports WMA Lossless (undocumented feature of Windows Mobile 6), few devices.
For whatever reason though poorly compressed songs sound much worse on this device compared to MP3-players in general.
If it's because the codec is poor or if it's so great that it makes smaller variances noticable is hard to say (I'd go for poor codec) but it's certainly not due to "poor sound".
Thats my $0.2

RPG0 said:
- The "drivers" would NOT solve the slow video we see in TCPMP, since TCPMP decompresses in software. And any release of CorePlayer has the same performance. Maybe one released after the "drivers" are installed would be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to disagree here...
The current routines being used for DirectDraw are slow and inefficient. Probably using very slow CPU calls. It's for sure a software CPU routine drawing the pixels.
Anyone who has done raw hardware video programming can attest if you popped an interrupt to draw one pixel on the screen vs using DMA access the difference is night and day. The interrupt method chews up CPU cycles drawing the pixels ont he screen vs the DMA method which doesn't waste CPU cycles and is far more efficient.
Pointing directdraw to use hooks into the GPU and or DMA access to a hardware frame buffer would improve things significantly (night and day). You can easily see this by playing a video on an old PPC6700 which has proper direct draw routine implemented. The difference is HUGE factor of 10 I'd say.
The slow video rendering has nothing to do with the CPU doing the video decompression. It has to do with the directdraw routines not being implemented efficiently and the CPU wasting it's cycles drawing pixels on the screen. You can see "tearing" because you can SEE the video refreshing the screen out of the vsync due to the slow directdraw routines that exist. The the CPU should be concentrating on decoding video not wasting cycles drawing the video. The directdraw routine should be writing to a framebuffer using DMA or some similar method.
This is what's going on (high level lame explantion). Pretend the below are mappings.
Method #1
DirectDraw -> IntXX (video interrupt)
or
Method #2
DirectDraw -> DMA (direct memory to the video card)
Using method #1 it will cost you CPU cycles just to draw the pixels. So not only does your device need to concentrate on decoding the video it also needs to waste CPU cycles drawing pixels on the screen one by one. And the larger the screen area your painting, the more CPU it costs you. You can even experience this on a device like the Mogul (6800); you can get faster frame rates when you draw less pixels.
Using method #2 drawing video costs your CPU basically no overhead and it can spend it cycles decoding the video. It will use DMA to write to a video frame buffer instead of making CPU calls to do it.
These are just examples, but this how it's broken from my hardware programming experience.
The post above mine is also a good reference.

I stand by my statement, that having a good DDraw implementation will not help. In theory, you're right, but on other devices (Htc Prophet aka Qtek S200 and HTC Touch) there was no difference between Raw framebuffer or GDI and DDraw. So real-life scenarios tend to prove me right.
The only reason things could speed up is the hardware conversion between YUV and RGB, but for a 320x240 frame, that takes very little time to do in software, and for some codecs, the conversion is not necessary. I can explain what YUV means, and why it's used in video/image compression if anyone is interested, but you can google youself.
About the sound part, maybe i have an old radio ROM, maybe i have a defective device or maybe it's just my configuration.
EDIT: Don't forget that even when using HW overlay, you STILL have to fill the surface with pixels (the pixels you just decoded), so you have to write 320x240 somewhere (with DDraw you write in the memory area you get with Lock(), in Raw framebuffer you write directly in an area that is drawn afterwards). If you ignore the YUV->RGB conversion, you gain NOTHING with DDraw.
As i said, i'm a game render programmer, and i did some image/video compression/decompression in my time, so you can get technical, I'll understand.

so !!
hi fpgo,so how are sony/ericsson getting round video prob on X1 xperia ? I guess their not going to market with a half crippled device, unlike htc,from what I can make out x1 is only a tweaked kaiser,so could we not just back engineer their solution ?
greatly disapointed with kaiser all round.if id known se version was due,id have waited to upgrade,still prefer my p910i,just no 3g.

tleaf100 said:
hi fpgo,so how are sony/ericsson getting round video prob on X1 xperia ? I guess their not going to market with a half crippled device, unlike htc,from what I can make out x1 is only a tweaked kaiser,so could we not just back engineer their solution ?
greatly disapointed with kaiser all round.if id known se version was due,id have waited to upgrade,still prefer my p910i,just no 3g.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you watch the CNET video from Bonnie Cha on the X1, you'll see it's actually pretty slow in the rendering as well, so forget that.
Now back to the experts.

X1
sorry,not seen video,will go and have a look.
was only an idea...
will leave to you "experts" ....

RPG0 said:
I stand by my statement, that having a good DDraw implementation will not help. In theory, you're right, but on other devices (Htc Prophet aka Qtek S200 and HTC Touch) there was no difference between Raw framebuffer or GDI and DDraw. So real-life scenarios tend to prove me right.
The only reason things could speed up is the hardware conversion between YUV and RGB, but for a 320x240 frame, that takes very little time to do in software, and for some codecs, the conversion is not necessary. I can explain what YUV means, and why it's used in video/image compression if anyone is interested, but you can google youself.
About the sound part, maybe i have an old radio ROM, maybe i have a defective device or maybe it's just my configuration.
EDIT: Don't forget that even when using HW overlay, you STILL have to fill the surface with pixels (the pixels you just decoded), so you have to write 320x240 somewhere (with DDraw you write in the memory area you get with Lock(), in Raw framebuffer you write directly in an area that is drawn afterwards). If you ignore the YUV->RGB conversion, you gain NOTHING with DDraw.
As i said, i'm a game render programmer, and i did some image/video compression/decompression in my time, so you can get technical, I'll understand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, YUV overlay support would be very nice, but I doubt we will see it working on kaiser (does Imageon even supports it?). But.. Working DDraw accel. would still help - for example when doing soft yuv->rgb conversion and double buffering result - you would definitively get better results if Kaiser have had hw accelerated bitblt (or at least less tearing).

*** Massive Brain Overload*** "Apparently these people are speaking a strange dialect I've never heard before" -Harold & Kumar Escape from Montanamo Bay

RPG0 said:
...
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL! And that will be the funniest thing I hear all day. And I just woke up.

Oh, and since HTC said they are releasing a new ROM which fixes the speed of the device, but does not bring HW accel (drivers), i think my problems will be over.

new rom
ahh,and when is this magical fix for kaiser meant to be released to public ?
my kaiser has become 3g /hsdpa usb modem,and gone back to p910i for everyday use,kaiser too fussy/slow/clunky for busy gardener,keeping fingers crossed about s/e "paris".

Just a shameless bump

Opinions about diamond 2?

Hi, i am thinking of switching to diamond 2, however may i know is there any problems encountered with diamond 2? Like the parts spoils easily or software lag? Reviews from anyone here? Thank You.

i moved to d2 from polaris,
its huge upgrade specially the screen quality and it can run 3d apps and its faster + gsensor & light sensor are cool, but after the first week of excitement and getting used to new features, overall its pretty much the same...
i mean still the same windows, same games, same apps in much prettier package.
on the other hand when i hold it next to my polaris the polaris looks like a dinosaur i would never go back to that crappy qvga screen
the only disadvantage of d2 is the lack of d-pad its kinda missing cause not all apps & games made for only touch use.

An amazing device.
Last HTC phone I had was a Himalaya about 4 years ago, bought from eBay for a bargain price. That's still going, so I've no doubt that this device will keep me going for a good long while yet!
The only real benefits it has over other HTC devices are the camera (5MP with autofocus) and the general aesthetics... It's a very professional, very good looking phone. All of the other features are on all HTC WinMob devices, including the operating system. Ports are happening for the interface to adapt to different hardware across the range, but it's not big trouble.
In all, a very capable phone. Find one at a price you like and you will not be disappointed.

The current phone i had is Dream, however i met with keyboard problems. Thus no slider phone anymore for me, candybar is the obvious choice.
In the market i feel that TD2 is the most beautiful phone currently, but i am hoping i would never need to send it in to repair. Thank you for your reviews.

TD2
I agreed with BNM, the buttons & D-pad are essential to operate most games and programme mapping to. I also found that pocket player don't work very well with TD2. Going to try Pocket Music next.

where do you stand?
It all depends on your luck and what you want to do with your TD 2. For the former, it is all about receiving a version which doesn't present problems (I have this device for a month and going and still haven't had problems with it. Read here a lot about hardware failure, not charging to the maximum, lag in menu and so on); as for the latter, you must consider if your phone is a phone or is a testing device (a lot of problems arise when users try to make "fried eggs" with a phone - some of the users here are doing/did to their TD 2 some things just to test the device. I myself avoid changing the windows reg as it is how it is for a reason. Also I found it very dangerous to use programs to boost audio (consider that the levels are how they are because maybe, just maybe, that is the maximum of the speakers and more will fry them)). So you must decide where you stand

google g1 to d2
i just changed my g1 after using it for 6 months and bought d2.
what htc has done to windows is simply AMAZING.
i have never ever been so happy with a windows device.
i hardly feel im using the crappy windows interface but am able to enjoy all the usefulness of windows at the same time with a slick interface.
the only gripe i have is that htc should have put in a capactiive display.
the battery is cool...
wifi, 3g... everything is great
cheers HTC

I'm as happy now as when I purchased it 2+ months ago. Perhaps I've been lucky in not suffering some of the problems (screen and charging) some have.
Good points: TF3D is great. You get a really nice interface whilst retaining the power of WM underneath, the best of both worlds. Superb screen. Good Bluetooth sound quality. Excellent camera for stills. Styling is cool (if you like retro 70's, which I do!)
Bad: Wifi is weak, 3G sensitivity only average, camera poor for movies. Screen might be fragile.
The good points outweigh the bad, for me.

Happy with my D2 after 2 months of usage. I have not changed Rom or radio yet, I'll probably wait for official 6.5 upgrade before playing with hardspl and custom rom, but overall, the stock device is very nice. Battery life is what I expected (not great, but I have 2 days of moderate usage or 1 day of heavy usage ... it is ok. And it seems to get better with radio upgrade, and an extended battery in the 1300 mAh range may become available while keeping the same size...)
Screen is amazing, the resolution is so high that everything is very very crisp and ebook reading is almost as nice as e-ink. Only difference is that it is a transmissive technology, not reflective, so nice in shadow or in your bed, not nice in direct sunlight. touch sensitivity is ok, not as good as capacitive but not by much...and you have the stylus for old-style interface...and for handwriting recognition...and old keyboard...and making drawings. Best of both worlds, in the end i prefer this to a capacitive screen...
And the D2 size is perfect for me: not too big i never feel it is more anoying than a normal dumb phone...But still big enough to have a usable screen where WVGA is not overkill (it is not, but just barely: people which can not focus on nearby objects should beware that WVGA will be a disadvantage).
Whatever the technical evolutions in the future HTC models, or competing smartphones, I think the D2 has hit the perfect size: I would not change it at all, keep the overall size of the D3 or whatever exactly the same (but make its screen 3.4 inches maybe ;-) )
So to summarize, the screen, overall size and style of the phone makes it a winner for me, there is currently no other smartphone I would have instead. I expect this will change in 2010, but for me the D2 is the best choice in 2009...As a bonus, I have found the GPS very sensitive (even indoor) and accurate. It is a battery draw and it lags (not too much, but sometimes annoying), but it is more sensitive than my previous bluetooth GPS-only device!
Now for the drawbacks:
-lowlight performance of camera. It is not only the absence of flash, the camera is not sensitive enough, or the auto-iso is not correctly programmed. Low-end nokia phone are much much better at nightshots, and iphone 3GS is better too. They have less pixel, but imho a highly sensitive sensor with less pixels is better for a phone, for high def pictures I have a dedicated camera, the phone is there for the unplanned shots, and lowlight performance is much more important for those kinds of shots than megapixels...I hope this can be corrected by OS upgrade, the lens opening seems no worse than the iphone and better than the nokia...but maybe 5 megapixels CMOS sensor are inherently less sensitive than 2MP or 3MP ones...
- poor wifi sensitivity, D2 have much more trouble than a laptop with weak wifi signals...and more trouble than other handheld device. I hope radio upgrade may improve things a little, but I al not too optimistic, it may be a poor antenna...
- some slowdown of TF3D sometimes, or of the phone in general, and poor playback of movies...but here I am almost certain that playing with custom roms and using something else than windowsplayer should improve things a lot.
With xda-developers, I expect to keep enjoying the D2 for at least 3 years before getting tired of tuning my phone and buying the latest and greatest as replacement.

Had Diamond 1 now have TD2, first thought: not a big update and seemed bigger! missed scroll wheel, but now im used to it (after 1 week) glad i got it, much faster and more ram! as for wifi ok for me? did you try and go to settings/wifi/advanced/power mode and change to best performance????????

Yes I tried it, it does not make much difference. No problem at all when the signal is strong, but D2 can not catch signals as weak as my laptop can (normal), or even some not so weak that my older PDA can catch too (not normal)...

gkai said:
Yes I tried it, it does not make much difference. No problem at all when the signal is strong, but D2 can not catch signals as weak as my laptop can (normal), or even some not so weak that my older PDA can catch too (not normal)...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am 3 meters away from my wireless access point and still struggle to connect with all settings correct that work with HTC Elf and Wizard with ease.
I still don't think we have reached the ease of use of an iPhone and I think the WVGA format may not be the best for phones (too skinny in portrait and too wide in landscape)
TouchFlo3D still isn't sufficiently clever or fully featured although it is gratifyingly pretty.
I come to the TD2 from an MDA touch (HTC Elf) and in a few ways it is a step backward:
- battery life is far better on the Touch
- WIFI is also far better
- rounded rubberised style is more solidly constructed and has a better feel
- TF2D home has quicker access to SMS, tasks, program launcher, weather, missed calls
- snooze control more varied (I think this is a WM6.0 thing)
- And very significantly the radio reception shows 4 bars pretty much all the time where the TD2 struggles to get even 2 bars.
In every other way the TD2 is better
Tony

Is the diamond stable and fast?

Hi,
Sorry to bother you people, but I was wondering if the reviews I am looking at are giving an accurate picture of the diamond?
Most say it is horribly slow with bad GPS detection.

Of course it is as the videos show.. but when you start using it on regular basis and not just using it for 10min you will notice some sluggish times (as with everything). But with some tweaks (check the forums) to the phone and TF3D, it should be responsive and smooth.

I take it the problem is ram? That seems to be the only difference between the diamond and the fuze.
Those are the two phones I'm stuck between. I'm a bit concerned that the fuze is a bit too bulky.

I would rate it very stable,but definitely nothing remotely like fast,comparing it to previously owned pocket pc's,its mainly laggy when multitasking or when interrupting a process it's already doing,and can be very annoying.....I personally won't buy another HTC until they stop using Qualcomm 7 series cpu's....nothing to do with ram IMO,it's the cpu that chokes and different rom's can only do so much.
On the flip side though,it's easily the most stable thing I've owned,and have only had the odd glitch with googlemap's and youtube application's,I only use GPS with googlemaps and it seems pretty good to me.
I don't use tf3d.

well.. i'm coming in from a wizard.
It was just lagging too much with the wm 6.1 rom with touch flo. Am I walking into a similar situation?

I found myself always on the lookout for the fastest ROM, this suggest that I'm not too satisfied with its speed.
While the phone is normally fairly responsive at times it can be very annoying just like gerryjoson said.
This same impression I had with the polaris and topaz of my colleagues, it must really be the CPU in it.
However I would not call it horribly slow and by the way GPS works beautifully.
Its biggest drawback is the battery which lasts 2 days max with low usage, only a few hours if you use wifi or 3g . GPS will suck it empty even faster.