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Sorry for this stupid question, I did search but I seemed not find any thread regarding my question.
Can someone tell me what is Program Memory is used for, I have a lot of free space in that, and I don't know where is that. All my files and my software seem to be on the Storage, but I only have 60Mb of it, there is another 90Mb free on the program memory.
Thanks.
Programs uses this as RAM when they are running. Just like on PC.
In WM 2003 i can install software on this RAM and run them directly from it. Plus I can store files in it as well as in the Storage. Is there anyway I can make this RAM usable for storing files and installing software? I heard from others that they can adjust this RAM to make it smaller and give some space to the Storage. Here is the source :
http://handheldvn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30214
Source is in Vietnamese so most of you might not understand, just for reference.
Thanks
As I understand it, 'RAM' and 'Storage' occupy the same bit of hardware. Your PPC increases the space available to each area as you fill it up..
It doesnt seem to quite make sense to have it that way, but thats how it seems to me. Anyone wanna correct me?
It has to do with WM5 persistent storage. The storage memory and program memory has to be seperated.
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/showthread.php?t=102947
EDIT: Duh, forgive me, I have put the wrong KB sizes above. correct values are below.
PRO: if you don't use, have never used and will never use one or more of these apps the ROMs can pack more add-on software which won't have to be installed or take up storage space.
CON: If you use them it gets a little bit less convenient, as you have to install it after a hard reset.
NOTE: I don't know how much the system needs those dlls, but I guess they are not deeply embedded in it and might not even need to be installed, unless ActiveSync desperately needs them to convert files back and forth. Which does not make sense to me, at least images, when there is any conversion process, are processed in the PC, as it is much more powerful...
Footprint:
Office dlls:
office.dll: +63KB
officeres.96.dll: +95 KB
officeres.dll: +96 KB
Pocket PowerPoint:
ppt.exe: +2.277 KB
Pocket Excel:
pxl.exe: +852 KB
pxlfile.dll: +34KB
pxl2xls.dll: +47KB
xls2pxl.dll: +78KB
SubTotal: 1.011 KB
Pocket Word:
pwod.exe:+227 KB
Total: 3.769 KB
There could be more Office-related dlls scattered around, but I don't know how to identify them...
I say pack all those files into a self installer CAB and it can be up to the user to include it or not. In theory if we could ever agree on a nice stable base rom to build an online ROM kitchen like the XDA had/has and make everything else optional.
An online ROM kitchen would be sweet!
theloon said:
An online ROM kitchen would be sweet!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
we'll see on the next couple of days... maybe we'll post it on the forum... BA WM5 rom kitchen... I sure Black6spdZ, xplode, thingonaspring, Midget and others will make it better :wink:
I just need to arange and fix a few stuff, since most people more prefer bepe's ways, for me it just gettin a little complicated to manage it work with bepe's way...lol...
I voted to keep it in the ROM, but only because I'm 99.99% sure that moving them will cause all sorts of problems. Any app launcher or today plugin that integrates with the office apps will break. They'll have hardcoded the path to the /windows directory, I'd put money on that. You might be able to replace the /windows exes with small launchers that point to the storage card I suppose.
I think the compression of the apps holds a lot of potential. Is there a compression tool that decompresses to the RAMdisk and runs from there? That would be the best of both worlds; the file is compressed in the ROM but only needs to be decompressed once on each RAM reset.
fraser said:
I voted to keep it in the ROM, but only because I'm 99.99% sure that moving them will cause all sorts of problems. Any app launcher or today plugin that integrates with the office apps will break. They'll have hardcoded the path to the /windows directory, I'd put money on that. You might be able to replace the /windows exes with small launchers that point to the storage card I suppose.
I think the compression of the apps holds a lot of potential. Is there a compression tool that decompresses to the RAMdisk and runs from there? That would be the best of both worlds; the file is compressed in the ROM but only needs to be decompressed once on each RAM reset.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We already have UPXed version of Office apps and dlls working, I believe Helmi will integrate them in the next version.
The 3.769 KB file footprint for the files above becomes around 1.450 KB, that's around 2.2MB of space saving.
For those who don't know:
UPX is a compression method meant to have extremely fast decompression speeds and very low resource comsumption. If I understood correctly, the ARM assembler-optimized UPX decompressor which is added to our dlls and exes is 224 bytes.
From the website, a memcpy on a Pentium 233 (dunno the OS) happened at 60MB/s, while the UPX decompression of the same data was 13MB/s.
fraser said:
I voted to keep it in the ROM, but only because I'm 99.99% sure that moving them will cause all sorts of problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is VERY true. Accessing the files would require a launcher as fraser says, and/or accessing any UPX'd resources in the DLL, or EXE without loading it in will cause cataclysmic failures in the calling application. The dangers are VERY high.
Brazilian Joe said:
I think the compression of the apps holds a lot of potential. Is there a compression tool that decompresses to the RAMdisk and runs from there? That would be the best of both worlds; the file is compressed in the ROM but only needs to be decompressed once on each RAM reset.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In theory you could do this with the RamDisk now, and use a RAR/ZIP/7Zip style archive on a SD Card (or in ROM). Simply run (on boot) an unarchive of the contents to RAM, and away you go. But in theory this isn't any better (and in reality is worse than) just installing the applications to the RAMDisk in the first place, and/or keeping a second "SD Card" just for the hard-reset cases when you want to re-install everything.
Brazilian Joe said:
We already have UPXed version of Office apps and dlls working, I believe Helmi will integrate them in the next version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just take care of PIM Managers, and other applications which may make direct usage of these applications. Also, a UPX'd DLL will require longer/slower load times due to decompression overhead as well as the IMGFS decompression requirements itself (even though the IMGFS portion will be 1:1 - i.e. uncompressed).
Brazilian Joe said:
The 3.769 KB file footprint for the files above becomes around 1.450 KB, that's around 2.2MB of space saving.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will unfortunately be MUCH less than that. Try building the ROM with the UPX'd applications and check the free sectors, and then compare that to a ROM with them replaced. The difference in free sectors * 512 bytes per sector is the REAL compression ratio achieved.
My guess is that UPX is about 40-60% better than the IMGFS, so this would mean a gain of around 1.1Mb in the ROM, and not 2.2Mb. But 1.1Mb of useful space is DEFINATELY nothing to be sneezed at! ;-)
Keep in ROM ...
Oh yeah, and I voted to keep the MS Apps in ROM.
Powerpoint could/should be compressed, and possibly Word/Excel if they're still 100% safe (they were in my testing in TuMa v1.3). Compressing any of the core OS though - ICK. I'm not in favour of that.
Save as much as we can, without going crazy ... and keep the Core OS, the Core OS. All the features we want to add should be exactly that - features!
Yo All!
Is there a *Clean* version of WM6.1 Pro? It is better for the users to have their own softwares to install.. Cos, its a waste of space if we don't use 'em... Well, its just an opinion.. Thank You! Especially for Syed Ather and c_shekhar..
If i had my Hima rite now...u would have had a Clean ROM with The latest build by tonight
i can cook a perfect rom in less than 25 minutes
Thank You Very Much!! I'll be waitin'!
you dnt understand...I dnt have a Hima any more ( broke it while repairing )
crazyboy12345 said:
Yo All!
Is there a *Clean* version of WM6.1 Pro? It is better for the users to have their own softwares to install.. Cos, its a waste of space if we don't use 'em... Well, its just an opinion.. Thank You! Especially for Syed Ather and c_shekhar..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
May I update you here.
The ROM is of Fixed size and takes the same quantum of space on device whether loaded with applications or not. Thats why The efforts always remain to utilize every bit of spare space in ROM by packing in it the application softwares/utilities.
If you take an absolutely clean ROM and install the same applications on it separately, you land up wasting the precious storage memory. And you know very well that on Hima the storage memory is only 30MB. So packing as many utilities as possible inside the ROM is always useful.
You would be surprised to know that on my device I have embedded following utilities inside the ROM (customised for my use)
1. Phatpad
2. Smart secretary
3. neotiles (a game)
4. Handy Shoppers
5. rlToday 1.22
6. Call SMS blocker
And with more than 600 cotacts mail/sms synchronization still have abt 11MB of storage free.
I hope it can give you some idea on this issue.
Yes I agree with you master c_shekhar. but you should pack the utilities of most intrest in the ROM. It is good that you have removed many of those junky types in your new release.
I have downloaded the new version 6.1.2a16CS which is a new build 19209. And shall report you once I flash it.
Hi guys, maybe you could try another ROM from PDAVIET forum.
http://www.pdaviet.net/showthread.php?t=23970
c_shekhar said:
May I update you here.
The ROM is of Fixed size and takes the same quantum of space on device whether loaded with applications or not. Thats why The efforts always remain to utilize every bit of spare space in ROM by packing in it the application softwares/utilities.
.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay... I'm currently downloading yours... The WM6.1 6.1.2a16CS .... it looks promising!
it would be cool if we could put the contents of the ExtRom to an SD-Card and decide for ourselves what software we want on our Phones, that would be great.
You can, very easily, as with the previous rom
c_shekhar said:
May I update you here.
The ROM is of Fixed size and takes the same quantum of space on device whether loaded with applications or not. Thats why The efforts always remain to utilize every bit of spare space in ROM by packing in it the application softwares/utilities.
If you take an absolutely clean ROM and install the same applications on it separately, you land up wasting the precious storage memory. And you know very well that on Hima the storage memory is only 30MB. So packing as many utilities as possible inside the ROM is always useful.
You would be surprised to know that on my device I have embedded following utilities inside the ROM (customised for my use)
1. Phatpad
2. Smart secretary
3. neotiles (a game)
4. Handy Shoppers
5. rlToday 1.22
6. Call SMS blocker
And with more than 600 cotacts mail/sms synchronization still have abt 11MB of storage free.
I hope it can give you some idea on this issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A fresh clean minimal rom would be good for messing around with Ather90's and others rom kitchens c_shekhar, mabey you could post one made with the latest build 19209
Jadel said:
You can, very easily, as with the previous rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for clearing that up
my question is if u put lots of programs into the program memory, and cook it, will the device become slow like hell?
boby1911 said:
my question is if u put lots of programs into the program memory, and cook it, will the device become slow like hell?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont mix up the things.
The ROM size is fixed. So it does not affect the program memory.
If you simultaneously keep active many programs then the free program memory get reduced. And if the free Prog memory is too less then the device becomes very very slow.
AND, The device may become slow even if you are not left with sufficient Storage memory. So availablity of both type of memory is important..
if i may add:
ROM: (Read Only Memory)
Size: 30 MB
Purpose: Keeps all installer files (Operating System, Applications) runs only after every HARD RESET.
Features: Cannot be ERASED except my FLASHING. (in step 2 at flash, it says..erasing ROM data)
RAM: (Random Access Memory)
Size: 128 MB (distributed to Program Memory, Storage memory, Ramdisk)
Program Memory needed by device to run programs (like DDR module in a computer), this is reset every time you reset your device.
Storage Memory, is used to store programs installed in device (like a harddisk in a computer), this is soft and supposedly hard reset persistent.
RamDisk, is a storage disk that is generated by converting some RAM as storage area. (much like a 2nd harddisk for installing programs), this is soft and hard reset persistent, which IMO is dependent on the state of your backup battery, mine loses data most of the time.
so total memory you have in XDA 2 is:
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB
in wm2003 and previous ROMS, this is defined as:
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB - 64MB program, 64MB storage, with slider provided to move memory allocation.
in wm5,6,6.1
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB = PROGRAM+STORAGE+RAMDISK
i hope i get this right, but this is how i understand this, corrections would be welcome.
paulpax said:
if i may add:
in wm5,6,6.1
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB = PROGRAM+STORAGE+RAMDISK
i hope i get this right, but this is how i understand this, corrections would be welcome.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
STORAGE is not part of RAM. Rest of understanding is OK...
I know the WM6.1 ROM footprint on my HTC is 128MB. But if I download and install a 'minimalistic' cooked ROM (without all the OEM junk), will that amount of memory be returned to the system for program use? IOW, if I find a cooked ROM that's 100MB, will that give me 28MB more RAM for program use? Or are all ROMs going to consume 128MB no matter what they do (or don't) include?
BillTheCat said:
if I find a cooked ROM that's 100MB, will that give me 28MB more RAM for program use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would give you more ROM, not RAM. That is, storage available for files and/or installed programs. The amount used by the ROM indeed depends on the software it already includes.
Ah. So the game is that the ROM footprint consumes 128MB, no matter what's in it? Is it safe to presume that WM is still using RAM for both storage and program execution?
For some reason, I remember on my HX4700 there was much dissatisfaction when WM went to v.5, because we always had the ability to move the system memory between storage space and runtime space. I guess the hardware on the Kaiser is operating differently then.
Please help me make sure I'm understanding this right.
What I need to do is to learn how to cook my own ROM based on a minimalistic starter, so I can pack in what I want to run, getting it out of RAM and off into ROM, right? IOW, I need to figure out how to move TomTom, MobileShell and other such applications that install resident to the device into ROM, freeing up the amount of storage/RAM that I have to work with. Correct?
If so, then one last question. What happens when I build in programs to ROM and then there are updates?
as of wm5 storage is rom
and application memory is ram
BillTheCat said:
Ah. So the game is that the ROM footprint consumes 128MB, no matter what's in it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. The Kaiser has 256MB of Flash memory. Part of it will be used as ROM, the exact amount depending on how much software is included in there. Usually 100-150MB, and those are write-protected. The rest is available as read-write storage.
BillTheCat said:
Is it safe to presume that WM is still using RAM for both storage and program execution?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. From WM5 on (like 3 years ago), file storage isn't done in RAM anymore but in the flash memory as described above. This allowed to prevent the problem where you'd lose all your stuff if your battery went down. Now you can remove the battery indefinitely without losing anything.
RAM is therefore only used for program execution. The Kaiser will have around 50-70MB RAM free after booting depending on your start-up apps, which is WAY enough not to have to worry about it.
Rudegar said:
as of wm5 storage is rom
and application memory is ram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, that's what I thought. So, then I'm right in that the thing to do is to maximize RAM by moving resident applications into the ROM to free up RAM, yes?
You can't do that. Read my post above for more detail, might have missed it as we posted pretty much simultaneously.
kilrah said:
The Kaiser will have around 50-70MB RAM free after booting depending on your start-up apps, which is WAY enough not to have to worry about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then if I'm reading you right, your feeling seems to suggest that investing a lot of effort in cooking my own ROM isn't necessary; that if I get a 'minimalistic' cooked ROM and install my own applications, it's effectively the same thing? IOW, a smaller footprint ROM will increase room for storage of programs and documents by eliminating some OEM stuff that's perhaps unnecessary, yes?
I guess the things that I could do without are these below:
- Getting Started (A bit late for this now!)
- Windows Live (Do you really need this?)
- Voice Speed Dial (MS Voice Command instead?)
- File Explorer & Zip (Both these are handled by Virtual Explorer)
- Windows Update (If it worked, would we be here?)
However as I don't know how big these things are, I may find that it's a lot of extra effort for not a lot of gain.
Your thoughts?
Exact. Everything you install will end in Flash memory, whether it's cooked in the ROM or installed later. The only difference is that if cooked it will be in the write-protected part and will still be there when you hard reset, unlike the apps you install later.
Here are some numbers, if you're interested.. This is going from a hard reset Tilt stock rom (Although I soft-reset before it installed AT&Ts crap so these numbers are BETTER than the typical stock AT&T Tilt) vs ROMeOS v4.1.
Code:
AT&T Stock ROM (hard reset, no AT&T customization)
Storage: 124.91 Program: 101.38
In Use : 10.17 In use : 27.20
Free : 114.74 Free : 74.20
ROMeOS 4.1
Storage: 150.59 Program: 85.32
In use : 3.90 In Use : 29.00
Free : 146.70 Free : 56.32
As for the program ram being down 20M, I think this is because the ROMeOS ROM has dynamic page pool so it adjusts itself as necessary, but I'm not sure. I've personally never had an issue with getting low on program ram. It's certainly nice having 30M more of storage space (not to mention the whole thing being snappier and the interface responds quicker, but enough advertisement for the ROM )
kilrah said:
Exact. Everything you install will end in Flash memory, whether it's cooked in the ROM or installed later. The only difference is that if cooked it will be in the write-protected part and will still be there when you hard reset, unlike the apps you install later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A completely unnecessary concern, when you have SPB backup.
I've got my head around this now. Thanks so much, you've been very helpful and I appreciate your effort.
khaytsus said:
As for the program ram being down 20M, I think this is because the ROMeOS ROM has dynamic page pool so it adjusts itself as necessary, but I'm not sure... It's certainly nice having 30M more of storage space (not to mention the whole thing being snappier and the interface responds quicker, but enough advertisement for the ROM )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I understand there is an advantage to a 'cooked' ROM. Does anyone know offhand if the HTC OEM 6.1 ROM has some of the performance 'tweaks' you suggest above, or should I just back up and experiment?
What I'm getting at is that if reflashing is only going to deliver a nominal performance benefit over the HTC ROM, it's not really worth the effort for me.
BillTheCat said:
What I'm getting at is that if reflashing is only going to deliver a nominal performance benefit over the HTC ROM, it's not really worth the effort for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes and no. Remember, It also adds more storage for you too! This might not be as important to you as it is to me though. The only application i prefer to be installed to my SD card is TomTom, and thats because all of the maps have to be there anyway. I use several MicroSD cards Daily ( have 3 4gb cards ) ( one for videos, one for tomtom, and one for photos/backup cabs/ect ). Being able to have enough ROM open for me to install all of my apps is important to me. Its not just a speed factor, but ive actually run out of ROM space before..... not a fun thing to hunt down whats taking up all your space. Cooked ROMS open up more space by removing all that Garbage from manufacturers ( We call it Bloatware) and makes more room for my stuff to go
Also, I dont think any OEM HTC ROMS have Kaisertweek or any other registry modifications. Granted, you could just download a registry editor and a tweek program, having the goodies already there and the junk removed makes for a faster / easier start if you flash as much as some of us do lol.
Just my opinion.
I save all my programs and install them on the internal drive. I am still getting a low memory warning. Are there any specific places I need to look , i.e Windows folder, etc.., where I can remove useless files? I'm afraid to delete some important things.
I have an Alltel Touch Diamond. Thanks in advance.
Low memory warning is not about the storage where you save your stuff & apps. Its the RAM of the diamond. To solve the issue you'll probably have to install another ROM with lower mem usage or close TF3D before running your heavy apps.
HI THERE
the program pocket mechanic solve me a lot of that issue .
after installing the prog. i removed some what of files to the intenal storage .
it did work for me just great /
windows folder/directory
open windows directory. goto Opera folder. goto images folder. any files that aren't jpg or png (meaning files that will have an opera logo in front of them) are deletable. If you use opera a lot and have never done this, there may be many. Also Windows/Messaging. this stores info from all emails, even when you delete, info is left here- delete all old stuff. If you feel iffy about trying any of this, create a folder in your internal storage to cut these files into, and if you have any trouble or do something wrong, you can cut/copy them right bsck (but these sre things i do to keep memory clear). Also, ClearTemp is an AWESOME HELPFUL program (and free). I think v1.21 is the latest, but after 3rd day of using it, it had recovered about 10mb of storage memory. (set it up properly, din't just hit 'clean'). good luck.
Lastly, some early diamonds (roms) had a known issue with unrecoverable storage memory, so last case scenario, update to newest official rom.
nickschot said:
Low memory warning is not about the storage where you save your stuff & apps. Its the RAM of the diamond. To solve the issue you'll probably have to install another ROM with lower mem usage or close TF3D before running your heavy apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
au contraire. memory on diamond is partitioned 3ways (storage memory, program memory, internal storage)
when you get a 'main memory low' msg, it's usually because your storage memory (not RAM), and not program memory, has dropped to <1mb. not your operating memory or program memory.
UgXvibe said:
I save all my programs and install them on the internal drive. I am still getting a low memory warning. Are there any specific places I need to look , i.e Windows folder, etc.., where I can remove useless files? I'm afraid to delete some important things.
I have an Alltel Touch Diamond. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dealt with this on my first diamond. Had to return it - it is an issue on early diamonds, known by htc (storage not erasing things it should, regardless of user settings). A search will turn up a handful of other threds on this topic.
Thanks for all the replies.. here are screens of what I'm talking about.
As you can see I have a ton of storage on the Internal but 1Mb left on Device... If you still agree that I should follow the advice above I will do that. Just wanted to clarify what I was talking about.
thank you scottspa74
I have exactly the same problem with storage memory and what scottspa74 proposed just gave me the solution to my problem .
Thank you very much
Well, I also found that if you have taken a lot of pictures and video with the phone it takes up a ton of device storage. Try deleting big video files or transferring them somewhere else.