Database Develop

Cooked ROM = More Memory?

I know the WM6.1 ROM footprint on my HTC is 128MB. But if I download and install a 'minimalistic' cooked ROM (without all the OEM junk), will that amount of memory be returned to the system for program use? IOW, if I find a cooked ROM that's 100MB, will that give me 28MB more RAM for program use? Or are all ROMs going to consume 128MB no matter what they do (or don't) include?

BillTheCat said:
if I find a cooked ROM that's 100MB, will that give me 28MB more RAM for program use?
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It would give you more ROM, not RAM. That is, storage available for files and/or installed programs. The amount used by the ROM indeed depends on the software it already includes.

Ah. So the game is that the ROM footprint consumes 128MB, no matter what's in it? Is it safe to presume that WM is still using RAM for both storage and program execution?
For some reason, I remember on my HX4700 there was much dissatisfaction when WM went to v.5, because we always had the ability to move the system memory between storage space and runtime space. I guess the hardware on the Kaiser is operating differently then.
Please help me make sure I'm understanding this right.
What I need to do is to learn how to cook my own ROM based on a minimalistic starter, so I can pack in what I want to run, getting it out of RAM and off into ROM, right? IOW, I need to figure out how to move TomTom, MobileShell and other such applications that install resident to the device into ROM, freeing up the amount of storage/RAM that I have to work with. Correct?
If so, then one last question. What happens when I build in programs to ROM and then there are updates?

as of wm5 storage is rom
and application memory is ram

BillTheCat said:
Ah. So the game is that the ROM footprint consumes 128MB, no matter what's in it?
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No. The Kaiser has 256MB of Flash memory. Part of it will be used as ROM, the exact amount depending on how much software is included in there. Usually 100-150MB, and those are write-protected. The rest is available as read-write storage.
BillTheCat said:
Is it safe to presume that WM is still using RAM for both storage and program execution?
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No. From WM5 on (like 3 years ago), file storage isn't done in RAM anymore but in the flash memory as described above. This allowed to prevent the problem where you'd lose all your stuff if your battery went down. Now you can remove the battery indefinitely without losing anything.
RAM is therefore only used for program execution. The Kaiser will have around 50-70MB RAM free after booting depending on your start-up apps, which is WAY enough not to have to worry about it.

Rudegar said:
as of wm5 storage is rom
and application memory is ram
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Click to collapse
Yeah, that's what I thought. So, then I'm right in that the thing to do is to maximize RAM by moving resident applications into the ROM to free up RAM, yes?

You can't do that. Read my post above for more detail, might have missed it as we posted pretty much simultaneously.

kilrah said:
The Kaiser will have around 50-70MB RAM free after booting depending on your start-up apps, which is WAY enough not to have to worry about it.
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Then if I'm reading you right, your feeling seems to suggest that investing a lot of effort in cooking my own ROM isn't necessary; that if I get a 'minimalistic' cooked ROM and install my own applications, it's effectively the same thing? IOW, a smaller footprint ROM will increase room for storage of programs and documents by eliminating some OEM stuff that's perhaps unnecessary, yes?
I guess the things that I could do without are these below:
- Getting Started (A bit late for this now!)
- Windows Live (Do you really need this?)
- Voice Speed Dial (MS Voice Command instead?)
- File Explorer & Zip (Both these are handled by Virtual Explorer)
- Windows Update (If it worked, would we be here?)
However as I don't know how big these things are, I may find that it's a lot of extra effort for not a lot of gain.
Your thoughts?

Exact. Everything you install will end in Flash memory, whether it's cooked in the ROM or installed later. The only difference is that if cooked it will be in the write-protected part and will still be there when you hard reset, unlike the apps you install later.

Here are some numbers, if you're interested.. This is going from a hard reset Tilt stock rom (Although I soft-reset before it installed AT&Ts crap so these numbers are BETTER than the typical stock AT&T Tilt) vs ROMeOS v4.1.
Code:
AT&T Stock ROM (hard reset, no AT&T customization)
Storage: 124.91 Program: 101.38
In Use : 10.17 In use : 27.20
Free : 114.74 Free : 74.20
ROMeOS 4.1
Storage: 150.59 Program: 85.32
In use : 3.90 In Use : 29.00
Free : 146.70 Free : 56.32
As for the program ram being down 20M, I think this is because the ROMeOS ROM has dynamic page pool so it adjusts itself as necessary, but I'm not sure. I've personally never had an issue with getting low on program ram. It's certainly nice having 30M more of storage space (not to mention the whole thing being snappier and the interface responds quicker, but enough advertisement for the ROM )

kilrah said:
Exact. Everything you install will end in Flash memory, whether it's cooked in the ROM or installed later. The only difference is that if cooked it will be in the write-protected part and will still be there when you hard reset, unlike the apps you install later.
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A completely unnecessary concern, when you have SPB backup.
I've got my head around this now. Thanks so much, you've been very helpful and I appreciate your effort.

khaytsus said:
As for the program ram being down 20M, I think this is because the ROMeOS ROM has dynamic page pool so it adjusts itself as necessary, but I'm not sure... It's certainly nice having 30M more of storage space (not to mention the whole thing being snappier and the interface responds quicker, but enough advertisement for the ROM )
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Yes, I understand there is an advantage to a 'cooked' ROM. Does anyone know offhand if the HTC OEM 6.1 ROM has some of the performance 'tweaks' you suggest above, or should I just back up and experiment?
What I'm getting at is that if reflashing is only going to deliver a nominal performance benefit over the HTC ROM, it's not really worth the effort for me.

BillTheCat said:
What I'm getting at is that if reflashing is only going to deliver a nominal performance benefit over the HTC ROM, it's not really worth the effort for me.
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Yes and no. Remember, It also adds more storage for you too! This might not be as important to you as it is to me though. The only application i prefer to be installed to my SD card is TomTom, and thats because all of the maps have to be there anyway. I use several MicroSD cards Daily ( have 3 4gb cards ) ( one for videos, one for tomtom, and one for photos/backup cabs/ect ). Being able to have enough ROM open for me to install all of my apps is important to me. Its not just a speed factor, but ive actually run out of ROM space before..... not a fun thing to hunt down whats taking up all your space. Cooked ROMS open up more space by removing all that Garbage from manufacturers ( We call it Bloatware) and makes more room for my stuff to go
Also, I dont think any OEM HTC ROMS have Kaisertweek or any other registry modifications. Granted, you could just download a registry editor and a tweek program, having the goodies already there and the junk removed makes for a faster / easier start if you flash as much as some of us do lol.
Just my opinion.

Why is there so few RAM available??

Hey guys,
I just switched from a Polaris to my Kaiser a few days ago, because of the keyboard.
I love my Kaiser, but there is one thing I'm wondering about.
Why is there so few RAM in the Kaiser?
On my Polaris I had 60+ MB free (with an 8MB Touchcube loaded), up to 68.
On the Kaiser I have max. 43-45 free with nothing (I know of) running in the background....
How is that?
Stefan
edit: It's the same situation on different ROMs I tested and it was the same situation on different Polaris ROMs, too. They were all fully loaded, no light ROMs etc.

I think most ROM chefs have gone to either "larger" page pools, or dynamic page pools. And depending on the page pool size, you will see less available RAM.

Would you like to "SEE" a lot of free ram but run yr machine slow because of no caching/paging? Or you want to "FEEL" a lot smoother user experience because we spend some ram for cache/pagepool?
With 128mb Qvga machine like Kaiser, I don't even dare to look at the memory meter since I NEVER run into not enough ram issue even I abuse it w/ lots of concurrent apps (Iguidance 4 + TomTom 7 + A2DP w/ Coreplayer + lots of todays plugins).
I rather concern about too many unnecessary background service/process since WM has a physical limit of 32 processes

45MB free is nothing to worry about, I've never really managed to use more than 20MB with more than 10 apps running.
And devices like the Hermes were doing fine with less than 20MB free after a clean boot.

very nice way expressing/explaining
so thats call for button X application (plug in)
jackleung said:
Would you like to "SEE" a lot of free ram but run yr machine slow because of no caching/paging? Or you want to "FEEL" a lot smoother user experience because we spend some ram for cache/pagepool?
With 128mb Qvga machine like Kaiser, I don't even dare to look at the memory meter since I NEVER run into not enough ram issue even I abuse it w/ lots of concurrent apps (Iguidance 4 + TomTom 7 + A2DP w/ Coreplayer + lots of todays plugins).
I rather concern about too many unnecessary background service/process since WM has a physical limit of 32 processes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

The ROMs I used on the Polaris had a 18MB PP...
Laurentius' V10 also has 18MB...
And I also can't seem to fill the RAM, but I'm a little confused...

I also go pretty high on my page pools (24 mb). However, you can request a ROM of your liking with the page pool you want (look at my sig) .

kareem9nba said:
I also go pretty high on my page pools (24 mb). However, you can request a ROM of your liking with the page pool you want (look at my sig) .
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Thx, but as I said, I'm alright with my RAM.
I'm only curious why a ROM which is (supposed to be) very similar to a Polaris one according to the settings (where the Polaris ROM actually had the TouchCube with 8MB loaded) has 15-20MB less RAM available... what the hell is running in the background on the Kaiser that takes that much memory?
Oh, and btw, all the screenshots for the Kaiser I saw (even from light ROMs), don't have much more than 50MB free, so how can a light Polaris ROM have 70MB free??!!
Stefan
P.S: I don't mean to annoy anyone, but I just can't help it...
I wanna know what takes my RAM away...

Sayuuk said:
Oh, and btw, all the screenshots for the Kaiser I saw (even from light ROMs), don't have much more than 50MB free
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There, just for you. 47.3MB with no programs running but no reboot for more than one week, and 63.1MB after reboot. The screenshot program is taking 1MB in both cases, and I have a couple of small programs starting automatically on boot.
Any chance you'd be using WM6 on one and WM6.1 on the other?

Sayuuk said:
what the hell is running in the background on the Kaiser that takes that much memory?
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Why don't you use Memmaid and take a look?

jackleung said:
Why don't you use Memmaid and take a look?
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Click to collapse
I can't find anything, that's why I'm asking ;-)
@kilrah: interesting, I never saw that much free RAM on a Kaiser.
However, on my Polaris I had a ROM (as previously mentioned) that was fully loaded, all the stuff I have on my Kaiser + the Cube and I still had about 20MB more free RAM than I have on my Kaiser without a Cube...
The only Hardware-based difference on the Kaiser is the keyboard... but that can't have anything to di with it, can it?
Stefan

I was also always curious as to why, if they can make 32gb micro sd cards, can't they simply put that much memory into the Kaiser to begin with?

Two Things
A) They don't have 32Gb MicroSD cards yet.
B) Lets say they Did. Leaving the Card Slot Blank costs nothing. Filling it with a Card costs money. Larger Profit Margin for HTC. They win.

And some more:
D) Most people don't give a damn about having 16/32GB in their phone, and would certainly be pissed off if they had to pay more for something they didn't need. Those will just buy a 1GB card and be fine with it.
E) That would open the door to iphone-like ripoff, with $100-200 difference between the 8GB and 16GB models... when we know that a 8GB memory card costs around $20 nowadays, so much more like $5 to add it inside the phone for the manufacturer. But as we all know, internal memory always costs more than cards....
F) Bit unrelated, but in my country electronic devices are subject to a copyright-style tax based on the amount of internal memory. But memory cards aren't taxed. Choose the best option

And backup sizes increase too!
After watching my free device memory decline and backup sizes go up every day, I found that PIE (Pocket Internet Explorer) and Opera were taking a more than decent amount of memory for their caches.
Clearing PIE and Opera's cache freed over 30M of device memory for me!
While Opera gives a setting for cache size, PIE has only a registry setting:
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings\5.0\Cache\Content\CacheLimit
It's set to 42680 in my Tilt. While I can change the registry value, the change won't survive a soft reset.
My solution is to regularly clear the browser caches and check the device for temp files. It's made a huge difference for me (from 11M free to 61M free)

gavink said:
After watching my free device memory decline and backup sizes go up every day, I found that PIE (Pocket Internet Explorer) and Opera were taking a more than decent amount of memory for their caches.
Clearing PIE and Opera's cache freed over 30M of device memory for me!
While Opera gives a setting for cache size, PIE has only a registry setting:
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings\5.0\Cache\Content\CacheLimit
It's set to 42680 in my Tilt. While I can change the registry value, the change won't survive a soft reset.
My solution is to regularly clear the browser caches and check the device for temp files. It's made a huge difference for me (from 11M free to 61M free)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man, we are talking about RAM (program memory) and you are talking about ROM (storage memory).
I always use memmaid to clean up before backup to make sure no junks are being backup. In fact, most backup software allow you to choose what directory to or not to backup.

jackleung said:
Man, we are talking about RAM (program memory) and you are talking about ROM (storage memory).
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I don't see that in the previous posts. I do understand the difference between program and storage memory. RAM is where everything but the base system is stored... right? ROM (read only memory) isn't used for a dynamic cache... right?

gavink said:
I don't see that in the previous posts. I do understand the difference between program and storage memory. RAM is where everything but the base system is stored... right? ROM (read only memory) isn't used for a dynamic cache... right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was back on '03... the terms stayed the same but since WM5 the technology changed
It's like on your PC.
RAM is the storage the programs actually run in, ROM is the ... rest
If you look at the Memory Page in the settings. ROM ("Storage") is what you're talking about and RAM ("Program") is what the rest of us is talking about...
Stefan

Sayuuk said:
That was back on '03... the terms stayed the same but since WM5 the technology changed
It's like on your PC.
RAM is the storage the programs actually run in, ROM is the ... rest
If you look at the Memory Page in the settings. ROM ("Storage") is what you're talking about and RAM ("Program") is what the rest of us is talking about...
Stefan
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sooo... you're saying that my PIE and Opera caches are both in my Tilt's ROM? Wow... somehow I fell waaaay behind the times!

gavink said:
Sooo... you're saying that my PIE and Opera caches are both in my Tilt's ROM? Wow... somehow I fell waaaay behind the times!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not actually ROM anymore, that's what I meant and I guess that's why you're confused.
I think you understand what RAM is. Now what we mean when we say ROM is just the rest of the internal storage that is NOT the RAM.
If you read the specs of HTC phones you always see 128MB RAM and 256MB ROM. ROM in this case is just a name that's in use cuz it's always been used, though it's not ReadOnlyMemory nowadays.
Stefan

do I have less memory than the specs on my diamond!

hi,
I bought the Indian 2.75G version of the htc touch diamond without the extra in the front.
I checked the task manager memory and this is what it looks like:
http://gidisrael.googlepages.com/myDiamondmem.jpg
Is that correct?
If I'm not mistaken program memory is supposed to be 192MB and Rom:256MB??
Thanks so much

Google is your friend.
As far as I know, 64Mb is reserved for the GPU (+ maybe other phone functions). Here for more.

I did do some searching, but I guess I would'nt have found an article with the title "64MB eaten by aliens".
Anyway, thanks so much. I'm a little confused about the ROM now, what about the 256 MB ROM, where did it dissappear and why does it say I have 83.44 MB storage memory.
After some searching I found this on an archived post here:
128Mb of RAM speaks for itself. Of the 256Mb of flash however, 128Mb contains the operating system, the other 128Mb are available to the end user to install programs and add documents. When flashing any given device, the available flashrom is first filled up with the OS, after which a second amount is allocated to the extended rom area, and finally the rest is made available to the end user.
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Is this correct?
Thanks.

I did a bit of research and that quote seems quite correct as to what is stored in the flash ROM:
- bootloader
- OS
- extended ROM area (themes, customizations and apps that install immediately after a hard-reset)
- (lastly) the user-available portion.
Your 83Mb is similar to my free storage mem.
I suppose getting a ROM with all the unnecessary apps removed is your best bet of increasing your program storage size. Also, I think chefs move some apps into the extended flashROM area, making more space available to program storage.

H3x said:
Google is your friend.
As far as I know, 64Mb is reserved for the GPU (+ maybe other phone functions). Here for more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I've read in other threads, both the Diamond and the Pro lacks graphics drivers for hardware processed rendering so what's the use of having a GPU then?

everyone would like to know
mostly to lure people in with a spec that doesnt live up to itself.

Great Chefs please consider adding RAMDISK to your custom ROM

since blackstone has sufficient ram, it would be highly efficient to install a ramdisk and relocation all tmp file to the ramdisk. At least it will make web browsing and other related applications to start a lot faster. We can also use it to store some tmp files. A 8M ramdisk is good enough for general use and I believe a lot of program can make benefit from it. Thanks.

Uhm, Since the device uses ALL flash memory, wouldn't using a RAMdisk be pointless?

snootch said:
Uhm, Since the device uses ALL flash memory, wouldn't using a RAMdisk be pointless?
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No, the RAM is a lot faster than the flash memory ...
I had the same idea a while ago, but figured out that it is quite useless. Using a ramdisk for browsers will make it faster on the one hand, but on the other hand you loose the possibility to cache content, so you'll have to download all data again and again, which means that you have to pay for it again and again .
Beside the browsers I don't see any usefull application, which uses temporary files (and the temporary files are slowing down the application).
So, what exactly do you have in mind?

johnpatcher said:
No, the RAM is a lot faster than the flash memory ...
I had the same idea a while ago, but figured out that it is quite useless. Using a ramdisk for browsers will make it faster on the one hand, but on the other hand you loose the possibility to cache content, so you'll have to download all data again and again, which means that you have to pay for it again and again .
Beside the browsers I don't see any usefull application, which uses temporary files (and the temporary files are slowing down the application).
So, what exactly do you have in mind?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think a ramdisk can be used for a lot more than just browsers. It can be used as a cache for any program that needs to cache commonly used data (such as the theme files in G-Alarm) If it could be used as a cache for the .NET CF VM, that would be even better as it takes ~5-10 seconds for the VM to start up when you start an application built using .NET CF. P.S.: Were you thinking of having the chefs include this program? http://www.amv007.narod.ru/en/index.html

for the best performances, i would suggest to put the swapfile onto the ramdisk....do you agree?

This is something i was first asking when i joined. onoklog early roms for blackstone did have it but now ha stopped. it is good for dump tempory files and does have a feature in it that supports caching files so certain dumps are not lost on reset. Would be happy to see this intergrated into new roms.

install it by yourself.not veryone need it

mcdull said:
since blackstone has sufficient ram, it would be highly efficient to install a ramdisk and relocation all tmp file to the ramdisk. At least it will make web browsing and other related applications to start a lot faster. We can also use it to store some tmp files. A 8M ramdisk is good enough for general use and I believe a lot of program can make benefit from it. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is there really that much difference in the access time between main storage and memory ?
for disks its milli seconds vs nano seconds so ram disks make sense

I can't tell how fast the RAM is .. but the nand is extremely slow...

web browsing does benefit noticably when u have opera, etc. cache writing to RAMdisk instead of "main" (nand) memory. also works great as a place for temp. storage (ie. all those files that usually get written to "Volatile" folder). that's about it though...
I don't think it needs to be cooked in either - self-installation is easy enough anyways

What does Swap Do?

yeah.. knowing basic knowledge of computer stuff.. its used for memory and stuff.. but what is the point of having it for ROM's?
I use 192MB of Swap.. how will that effect anything..

There is a TONNE of information already on this...
The search button is your friend.

ElChibo said:
yeah.. knowing basic knowledge of computer stuff.. its used for memory and stuff.. but what is the point of having it for ROM's?
I use 192MB of Swap.. how will that effect anything..
Click to expand...
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It allows you to keep more processes active in memory by using disk space as fake memory, thus increasing the load on your CPU and slowing it way down.
If you like your phone slow, enable swap. If you like it fast, don't.