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I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Yeah, there's a line there somewhere. I think.
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AFAIK there is a kind of morality behind it - if you can buy the software, and you are using it for free, its considered Warez.
If you cant buy the software then its considered that you are not taking food from anyone's mouth, and its tolerated.
Of course you could say you are reducing the competitive advantage of the other devices e.g. taking Omnia's widgets and moving it to a HTC Touch Diamond, and thats when things get messy, but I think this is generally how its seen and how it works.
Surur
If it's HTC software and you're using it for an HTC phone, it's asssumed that it's licensed for use on your device and acceptable. A bit of a stretch, but HTC has never, to my knowledge, requested that files be removed from XDA-Devs servers, so there seems to be tacit permission or simply active non-enforcement.
Same for AT&T appz &c if it's an AT&T phone or you're using their service, I suppose (likewise for other carriers and their apps).
If a software being distributed is a redistribution of a freeware (which should have allowed for redistribution in the freeware license), it's acceptable. As well, sharewares should not come preregistered or with serials or any means to circumvent proper registration and doing so or requesting such things gets posts deleted and accounts banned.
So that applies to non-OS/OEM/Carrier apps distributed in ROMs.
Because of various reasons (e.g. the fact that WinMo never really took off as much as Bill & Co. would have liked, and because OEMs and carriers don't want to spend money to license and prepare distributions of the WinMo OS thereby making customers less likely to invest in soon-to-be-obsolete devices, and I like to think a bit of respect for the hackers who manage to port and distro better ROMs than the carriers and OEMs), Bill & Co have decided not to send their anti-piracy witch hunters after WinMo ROMs. It is actively NOT enforced. (Different meaning from 'not actively enforced' and that's intentional.)
Because of the greyness in this area you will notice that no MS products are hosted on XDA-Dev servers.
However, to allay any fears on your part, if your OEM or carrier has provided version n of an OS, or released a free upgrade, or you have paid for a ROm upgrade for your phone's model, your hardware is licensed to use that version.
So, if you are truly worried about breaching laws that aren't, in fact, being enforced, do not upgrade to an OS version not distributed by your carrier/OEM or that has not been licensed as free.
I personally think that while the developer of WinMo turns one eye blind to these activities, the porting of WinMo versions to different hardwares is something they keep their other eye on closely as it's to their advantage and an area of activity and innovation that they probably exploit. Because they aren't stupid.
Does that make things clearer for anyone?
P.S.
I should disclose that I am not, in fact, qualified as a legal counsellor or a lawyer. I only play one on TV.
;-)
IIRC, the thought is "If the software is offered already in the shipped ROM, it's paid for and OK. As long as that ROM is ported in whole to another device." I believe the mods look down upon pulling 3rd party software from ROM's to use in another ROM that the software was not originally offered.
I believe that's the general consensus, though I may be wrong.
from legal stand point. nothing that is done here is considered as stealing. Consider this , you use linux an open source format. you can modify to accomdate your needs. which these tools are suppled from the linux distributer. Or it is like adding speakers and a good radio to your new car how ever you want to look at it.
atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the software can be ripped out of a stock rom from AT&T, etc, then it can be shared here. If it is software you must buy, like the maps for tomtom, then you cannot post them here. You can rip the tomtom software from an AT&T rom, so it's posted here. You must buy the maps, so they're not. Does that help a little?
91004 said:
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
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Click to collapse
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
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Click to collapse
hello, just my opinion scotchua, but when it first read 91004 post and then the "smile" or grin posted, it made me laugh. had he not posted a "smile" or had he instead used this symbol "" ie sarcastic, then i think it would have been inappropriate. again just my opionion and i do value all the time you have invested here at XDA-Developers,
@91004 , welcome to XDA-Developers, this place is addicting and it rocks
thanks
Lupe
scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
If you post GameShoe#124 - well... everyone here is not ensured to have a license for the game. If the game is not a trial/freeware program, or otherwise checking to ensure you paid for the license to use it (such as a key).. then you're distributing content that is not owned or licensed & available to you.
BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, here's something to think about then: I could get a number of WM 6.1 ROMs as an upgrade to my WM 6 Kaiser but checking HTC's official site, there are no upgrades offered for my IMEI #. If we go strictly by the rules, the availability of WM 6.1 for me could be considered warez. On the other hand, tolerating this kind of relatively harmless behavior would certainly boost an OS's popularity.
In fact, one of the main reasons for my choosing HTC WM was the availability of these great number of ROMs, migrating from UIQ3.
There is a fine line, my definition would be: as long as the specific post does not have a negative financial impact on sales, it should be allowed.
91004 said:
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My point is simply that it was unfortunate that your first post is to get a dig in on the moderators' objectivity. When you know how much people complain about them and to them for doing a mostly thankless job, which they get no compensation for i might add, you'll understand why I don't think those type of comments are funny. I definitely understand that not all jokes are taken in the light in which they were intended; however, some jokes are best left unsaid. I certainly won't hold it against you as, just like you, i'm merely sharing my opinion.
BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you haven't. The device was licensed for use with the M$ product by the OEM. That license is restricted to a specific version, or versions on specific hardware
When the OEM or Carrier licenses an OS or an OS update that they are allowed to distribute, there is still an End User Licensing Agreement, and people have to read them to know what is allowed.
When one of our amazing XDA chefs cooks up a ROM or a new OS or a significant OS update and you install it on a device for which distribution was not licensed, this is warez. Read the EULA if in doubt.
Again, that's why XDA doesn't actually host those ROMs. Maybe official ROMs, but not hacked/ported ROMs.
However, it is currently an M$ policy to not enforce what is essentially warez distribution of the Win-Mobile OS. So I wouldn't worry about getting arrested or sued for installing one of these ROMs.
If M$ does decide to enforce, they don't go after the end users but the people distributing. So, end users, relax.
If you feel ethically bound to comply with EULAs and copyright laws, then you need to not use cooked ROMs that your device isn't licensed for or that the EULA doesn't permit you to use.
If you feel that laws that aren't enforced, or are unenforceable, are non-effective or lapsed, then you should do as your conscience directs you to do and be sure to stand up for yourself in court if lleh freezes over and M$ decides to enforce (and please do blog about it, I'll paypal you $5 bucks for your defence fund).
If you're a red-blooded rum-sodden pirate, you should say "Aaargh!" and do what you're going to do because you'd do it anyway.
Just please respect XDA Dev's policies whatever you choose to do and don't mess up a good thing.
BTW:
There is a policy listed in the site Rules or FAQ, so just read that and if you don't like it, don't leave angry, but please leave.
If you don't understand legal aspects and want to ask about it, PM the mods or admins and ask respectfully.
You can even PM me, but I cannot speak for XDA, I can only explain some legal basics and even then, my knowledge is based more in constitutional and criminal law.
I do think that threads like these call attention to the topic and it's best not to stir the pot, or rock the boat (pick your own metaphor of choice) and call the wrong kind of attention to the issues.
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
Exitao said:
...snip...
... don't leave angry, but please leave.
...snip...
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY! That's my line.
Your Wish Is Granted.
Thread Closed The Answer Has been given in this thread.
@91004, Honestly I laughed at your joke too.
I'll close the thread then
Dave
DaveShaw said:
I'll close the thread then
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
D'oh! Message to the Kids: Don't drink and Moderate.
It probably happened a month ago and I am just noticing it today (Nov 23, 2009), but it's very welcome news. For past 4 years I've been using Windows Mobile, but really thrilled to now have my HTC Hero running Android. I'm just curious when the Development & Hacking forum structure was revamped to give Android completely equal footing to the formerly "mostly just Windows Mobile HTC site"?
I hope someone will answer this question before it gets plucked away and banished to "General Discussions"
Yea, it happened probably a month ago... XDA has never intended to be locked down to just one device manufacture. at the time of XDA's creation the leader in smart phones was HTC and thus we worked with only the best (htc phones). However, now that time has passed we are seeing other smartphones begin to rival even HTC's prior superiority.
While we don't know yet the future of XDA, we hope in the future we can find a way to still provided the best Mod, hack, dev support for your favourite cutting edge phone.
Since the android platform is pretty generic for most phones that run it, meaning they have alot of base principles that tie them together, this has been created, and other sub forums, to try and reach out to the Android side and offer a place to put their mods hack and ideas that may benefit the community.
Stericson
Stericson, thanks very much -- very helpful. It fits with the understanding I'd always had --- that the forum began for modding the device actually called the XDA, which was an HTC phone. And the dominant platform was Windows Mobile.
I have been happy to see how users, all over the site, have been adapting to and including Android phones (those put out by HTC) and Android OS... and how a larger and larger group of users have asked for what you've now given: An equal-weight approach to the Android platform as well as WindowsMobile.
XDA has never intended to be locked down to just one device manufacture. at the time of XDA's creation the leader in smart phones was HTC and thus we worked with only the best (htc phones). However, now that time has passed we are seeing other smartphones begin to rival even HTC's prior superiority.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is interesting to read because I have never seen it expressed here before now that XDA-Developers might (... might) begin to more officially support devices made other than by HTC. 9 out of 10 times when a new registrant comes to XDA and asks "where's the forum for the Droid?", and before that, "where are the forums for the Omnia?" and "SonyEricsson?", the answer given by users is "This site is about HTC phones only" usually followed by "read the frikkin' FAQ!"...
Pushing the inclusion-boundaries of XDA-Devs, to me, is a great thing.. and an almost necessary adaptation... as the game has changed dramatically post-iphone. Given that most people in WindowsMobile land equate XDA-Devs as the ultimate go-to source for any mods and hacks on that platform, several large and separate communities have emerged to fill in new concentration-areas with Android that have appeared to be "unsupported by" or "outside the scope of" XDA-Devs. But also gven that Android rooting & modding began happening here almost immediately since HTC produced the first phones, an Android expertise exists here.
To me, now is the time to decide: does XDA officially expand to embrace the other phone makers now releasing Android phones?
Thanks for answering my question. And if you want to move this thread to a more appropriate forum, please do.
In in this New year Your Question should be answered.
There will be New Non HTC devices added to the Forums, though not in Large Scale. We won't be supported all new Smartphones coming out.
And which, well that's still a discussion being had in the General Forum
First off let me say this isnt my style, I am not one for airing anyones business. I wanted to keep the matter private and handle it behind the scenes so that this small issue didnt turn in to an all out war. As you can see this is exactly what happened.
I am only doing this because i want to clear the air for everyone involved, you all got worked up over nothing really. I will give you a very brief explanation of what happened, and i will not name any names.
With that being said, i first want to make an apology to the 2 devs involved:
Bananacakes, i think that i might not have stated my case very well with you, and based on your posts i feel that there might have been a language barrier and you may have taken what i said out of context. All i ever wanted was for you to talk to me about the issue so i could get your side of the story and make a determination.
WildChild, im sorry that i did not delete BC's rant with everyone elses. I didnt mean to make you look like an a$$. I wanted to give BC a voice on the matter but i didnt want to censor him completely. And in hindsight i may have damaged your name. Was not my intention, and i feel bad that it happened.
In this open community it is acceptable to share and borrow from others but its common courtesy to give the other dev credit for their work.
***********
A brief summary of what happened:
A MEMBER of the community (not one of the devs involved) brought to me an issue of similarities between 2 dev's. provided some screen shots and asked me to investigate the matter, as it APPEARED to be a Kanging issue (to get the story straight, it was MORE than just a so called script). So i contacted both devs involved, one was very cooperative and the other never contacted me. I waited 5 days before i took the next step at contacting the dev and this is where it all turned really ugly and public.
***********
Now, in this issue there has been numerous attacks on each others and some very ugly things said. Im willing to overlook all of those at this moment as i know a lot of you were upset. Loosing 2 dev's is a serious matter when we dont have that many to begin with. If i see anymore angry posts towards one another i will not hesitate to issue temporary/permanent bans (depending on severity).
Now quick, everyone, group hug!
I am going to leave it open for in case anyone wants to comment or beg either dev to come back. But the instant that someone gets negative toward either dev (i dont care if you talk bad about me, lol) i will lock this from comments.
I had this as a sticky, but in reality there isnt much going on in here right now, so really there is no need. I will only sticky if it starts to fall towards the bottom.
Please come back WC , WE MISS YOU
Was there wrong doing? Is the HoliRaider thread coming back?
jazzmoe76 said:
Was there wrong doing? Is the HoliRaider thread coming back?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing has been proved at this point. And the HoliRaider thread is being looked at by pstevep.
jazzmoe76 said:
Was there wrong doing? Is the HoliRaider thread coming back?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am waiting to talk to bananacakes before any decisions are made. I'm hoping we can work all of this out in a friendly non confrontational way.
I will post here any updates.
Thanks everyone for cooperating.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium
Everyone needs to just take it easy and not take things too serious. We should just stay focused on the prize, which is producing the best ROMs this phone has ever seen. All that arguing doesn’t get us closer to our goals, but hinders it. So Bananacakes and WC, just chill out and come back, your both good developers. After everyone is back to work and producing again, all this will be forgotten. Especially with ICS just around the corner, we'll need you even more.
NIKKG said:
Everyone needs to just take it easy and not take things too serious. We should just stay focused on the prize, which is producing the best ROMs this phone has ever seen. All that arguing doesn’t get us closer to our goals, but hinders it. So Bananacakes and WC, just chill out and come back, your both good developers. After everyone is back to work and producing again, all this will be forgotten. Especially with ICS just around the corner, we'll need you even more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+ 1
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App
So... The only 2 devs that we had left.. are gone?
Language barrier? Is one of y'alls native language something other than English?
Sent from my HTC Vivid
Crimson Ghoul said:
So... The only 2 devs that we had left.. are gone?
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Click to collapse
I havent seen any comments through this whole ordeal from Vhjc or PirateGhost, so i would assume they are still with us. As far as i know its just WildChild and BananaCakes that have decided to leave us. We do hope that they will reverse their decision and decide to come back.
haggardh said:
Language barrier? Is one of y'alls native language something other than English?
Sent from my HTC Vivid
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, and Bananacakes has stated on a few occasions that his english isnt that great. I personally felt that it was pretty good, but there was definitely some misunderstandings along the way. So i can only assume that it was a language barrier.
shogunmark said:
I havent seen any comments through this whole ordeal from Vhjc or PirateGhost, so i would assume they are still with us. As far as i know its just WildChild and BananaCakes that have decided to leave us. We do hope that they will reverse their decision and decide to come back.
yes, and Bananacakes has stated on a few occasions that his english isnt that great. I personally felt that it was pretty good, but there was definitely some misunderstandings along the way. So i can only assume that it was a language barrier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only Bananacakes and Wild Child were constantly updating their roms though... that's what I meant
I have been edited because i cant follow directions.
shogunmark said:
If i see anymore angry posts towards one another i will not hesitate to issue temporary/permanent bans (depending on severity).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So the mods are devs?!?
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App
come at me bro said:
So the mods are devs?!?
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am the only mod involved with this. But to answer your question, no i am not currently a dev.
NIKKG said:
Everyone needs to just take it easy and not take things too serious. We should just stay focused on the prize, which is producing the best ROMs this phone has ever seen. All that arguing doesn’t get us closer to our goals, but hinders it. So Bananacakes and WC, just chill out and come back, your both good developers. After everyone is back to work and producing again, all this will be forgotten. Especially with ICS just around the corner, we'll need you even more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For real... finally, a voice of reason. I mean, common sense. Okay so everyone has something to be bitter about. But how will that get anyone anywhere?
Walking away from a problem is NEVER the solution. At least Pirate and vhjc are still here, or so it seems.
I have had chat's with both guys at on point or another & in jest I probably started this, or some of it anyways.
However, the way I see it is that Android is a Linux fork complete with GPL requirements & in reality it is virtually impossible to Kang anything that is linux or Android related, aside from user side code.
Development at this stage is in it's infancy for the Vivid & Raider due to the lack of sources as well as the lack of developer involvement.
Android is all in all an open source project created with the intent of giving end users more fredom & choices. It is also a fairly easy platform to learn & develop for & on.
Kernels built are based partly on code from Google & sometimes the oem as well. Modifying a Kernel is a fun & sometimes brings us positive changes that improve our devices. How about the addition of the Bravia Engine & XLoud? Cool, right? But nobody thanks Sony in their posts. The whole point of opensource projects & a GPL is that we are supposed to work together to improve devices for ourselves & for end-users. We are supposed to share & collaberate in an effort to streamline our builds, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.
Yes, it's nice to see your name & be recognized for accomplishments, but that should be secondary, if an issue at all, to development. Let's be honest, most everyone cooking roms is "kanging" (for lack of a more accurate word) code from device chef's that have worked devices released before the Vivid, like the Sensation. We are all definitely "kanging' code from LG, Sony, HTC & Samsung.
Many of the Chef's/Cook's or whatever you want to call them, wouldn't even have an idea without work spanning back over a decade when XDA was truly a developer community forum. Look at all the work BuzzLightYear & itsme did & published for the betterment of the community. It's a different time now & instead of power users & developers being the owners of smartphones, now everyone that has a mobile pretty much has a "Smartphone".
Many of you don't even know that I cook roms. I don't publish them though, aside from a close friend or two, because of all this contention about what belongs to whom. Frankly, unless it is a program, more than likely the work has been done or modified somewhere in some forum on this planet. Unless you are truly rewriting a driver or an application, most everything else is part of the GPL & considered opensource.
I like Bananacakes rom. I like the graphics because the higher contrast makes it easier for me to read. I also like WildChild, bot the stability of his roms & him personally. We talk & razz each other at least once a week. I take both of their roms & mesh then into something I use for a daily driver. I use a modded version of the Rezound Incredikernel for my kernel & scripts from a dozen people. I will never publish it. I don't want to hear how I stole this or that, half of which was really stollen from the oem developer anyway, so I refuse to put myself thru that.
Most threads recognize people that have contributed & so many people contribute & there are so many parts to a rom that it's easy to overlook something that a member may have worked on. This crap all started around the time of the TouchPro & TouchPro 2. People stopped sharing source & started trying to lock down their roms & development stiffled. Sure, there were some cooks that made PRETTY roms, but there was no innovation, not truly.
Either this is a community working on an open source project, and like a family we all share from each others experiences & knowledge, or this is the death of development communities & everything might as well be an iPhone since everyone thinks their contributions are their intellectual property.
For this to remain a true development community, we need to share our work in the spirit of open source. This collaboration has to be a two way street though. If you borrow from someones work, then when you find way of improving upon it, you need to publish it, to share it.
And for criminies sake, knock off the 10 year old "I'm taking my ball home" crap. Kiss & make up, shake hands, get a room...whatever...Just share & share ALIKE & lets get on with making the Vivid the best device.
To all non-developing members: Really, Android is easy to develop for. A ton of the work can be done in a good text editor. There are really goog resources available to help you setup a development environment & even help you learn & write a first simple application. I promise you, it is much less daunting & intimidating than many think. Wild Child is a self-taught developer whom is really not involved in development as a career. I have some professional programming experience, but it is very specific (LANWorks & BACNet). I am not a mobile developer by trade. I'd hate to see either of these guys leave the community, but if they do then step up & learn to help yourself. Start with something you want to change, read learn & then it's trial & error time. Cooking a rom is the easy part. Making it truly unique & perform better than stock is also easy on many levels. It can be as simple making a few changes in text files. We need that. We also need better drivers, our devices are capable of 5Ghz wireless-n connectivity, but the drivers & implementation from HTC prevent it. Better media native compatibility is also another big thing that is possible. Again, this is a community, or supposed to be at least, so get involved. Make an effort.
shogunmark said:
I havent seen any comments through this whole ordeal from Vhjc or PirateGhost, so i would assume they are still with us. As far as i know its just WildChild and BananaCakes that have decided to leave us. We do hope that they will reverse their decision and decide to come back.
yes, and Bananacakes has stated on a few occasions that his english isnt that great. I personally felt that it was pretty good, but there was definitely some misunderstandings along the way. So i can only assume that it was a language barrier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would have never noticed that. Now that I think about it Some things do stick out. Well Thank you. I just saw where hes from. That being said its a different culture between the two. So in each others eyes they were right, and the other wrong.
So I hope neither of them are the stubborn type and decide to work things out.
GSLEON3 nailed it!!!!!! Yes, yes, yes and yes.
GSLEON3 said:
I have had chat's with both guys at on point or another & in jest I probably started this, or some of it anyways.
However, the way I see it is that Android is a Linux fork complete with GPL requirements & in reality it is virtually impossible to Kang anything that is linux or Android related, aside from user side code.
Development at this stage is in it's infancy for the Vivid & Raider due to the lack of sources as well as the lack of developer involvement.
Android is all in all an open source project created with the intent of giving end users more fredom & choices. It is also a fairly easy platform to learn & develop for & on.
Kernels built are based partly on code from Google & sometimes the oem as well. Modifying a Kernel is a fun & sometimes brings us positive changes that improve our devices. How about the addition of the Bravia Engine & XLoud? Cool, right? But nobody thanks Sony in their posts. The whole point of opensource projects & a GPL is that we are supposed to work together to improve devices for ourselves & for end-users. We are supposed to share & collaberate in an effort to streamline our builds, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.
Yes, it's nice to see your name & be recognized for accomplishments, but that should be secondary, if an issue at all, to development. Let's be honest, most everyone cooking roms is "kanging" (for lack of a more accurate word) code from device chef's that have worked devices released before the Vivid, like the Sensation. We are all definitely "kanging' code from LG, Sony, HTC & Samsung.
Many of the Chef's/Cook's or whatever you want to call them, wouldn't even have an idea without work spanning back over a decade when XDA was truly a developer community forum. Look at all the work BuzzLightYear & itsme did & published for the betterment of the community. It's a different time now & instead of power users & developers being the owners of smartphones, now everyone that has a mobile pretty much has a "Smartphone".
Many of you don't even know that I cook roms. I don't publish them though, aside from a close friend or two, because of all this contention about what belongs to whom. Frankly, unless it is a program, more than likely the work has been done or modified somewhere in some forum on this planet. Unless you are truly rewriting a driver or an application, most everything else is part of the GPL & considered opensource.
I like Bananacakes rom. I like the graphics because the higher contrast makes it easier for me to read. I also like WildChild, bot the stability of his roms & him personally. We talk & razz each other at least once a week. I take both of their roms & mesh then into something I use for a daily driver. I use a modded version of the Rezound Incredikernel for my kernel & scripts from a dozen people. I will never publish it. I don't want to hear how I stole this or that, half of which was really stollen from the oem developer anyway, so I refuse to put myself thru that.
Most threads recognize people that have contributed & so many people contribute & there are so many parts to a rom that it's easy to overlook something that a member may have worked on. This crap all started around the time of the TouchPro & TouchPro 2. People stopped sharing source & started trying to lock down their roms & development stiffled. Sure, there were some cooks that made PRETTY roms, but there was no innovation, not truly.
Either this is a community working on an open source project, and like a family we all share from each others experiences & knowledge, or this is the death of development communities & everything might as well be an iPhone since everyone thinks their contributions are their intellectual property.
For this to remain a true development community, we need to share our work in the spirit of open source. This collaboration has to be a two way street though. If you borrow from someones work, then when you find way of improving upon it, you need to publish it, to share it.
And for criminies sake, knock off the 10 year old "I'm taking my ball home" crap. Kiss & make up, shake hands, get a room...whatever...Just share & share ALIKE & lets get on with making the Vivid the best device.
To all non-developing members: Really, Android is easy to develop for. A ton of the work can be done in a good text editor. There are really goog resources available to help you setup a development environment & even help you learn & write a first simple application. I promise you, it is much less daunting & intimidating than many think. Wild Child is a self-taught developer whom is really not involved in development as a career. I have some professional programming experience, but it is very specific (LANWorks & BACNet). I am not a mobile developer by trade. I'd hate to see either of these guys leave the community, but if they do then step up & learn to help yourself. Start with something you want to change, read learn & then it's trial & error time. Cooking a rom is the easy part. Making it truly unique & perform better than stock is also easy on many levels. It can be as simple making a few changes in text files. We need that. We also need better drivers, our devices are capable of 5Ghz wireless-n connectivity, but the drivers & implementation from HTC prevent it. Better media native compatibility is also another big thing that is possible. Again, this is a community, or supposed to be at least, so get involved. Make an effort.
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I have decided to teach myself the trades of development on the android system. Need to put my AAS degree to the test
Sent from my HTC Vivid
Emailing to HTC
a.k.a.
- - - Operation "ath6kl_sdio.ko" - - -
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Hey Guys,
As you know, our great little phone has lot of potentials, but HTC condemned it to the status of an entry-level phone, meaning its main purpose is to draw new customers to their more expensive devices. And thus they leave us in the dark in the development front, and not just us but other less hi-spec phones too, like our twin-brother the Explorer forum or the Amaze 4G who have both achieved amazing things despite the lack of support.
Compared to other companies like Sony and Samsung who aims to be a "good open source citizen" by releasing entire source codes ahead of the actual phone launch, we can call it carelessness, laziness or a marketing model with debatable efficiency, but that is not too important now.
The only thing we can do - similarly to other users of neglected phones, like the Amaze 4G - is to inundate HTC with emails from each one of us, so they become aware that there is a strong and willing community of Desire C users who are devoted to this phone not just because it is cheap, but for other reasons too :victory:
For me personally it's the size that hands down beats all the higher-spec bigger bros, and feature wise all it's category. Think about yours and write to them.
The aim of this thread is to highlight the holes in the official support and to provide information for anyone who is prepared to write HTC regarding the development issues we are facing. The post below will be updated parallel with the info we are gathering here.
>>> Therefore it would be appreciated if our devs and more technically literate members added their insights on these problems, so it can be communicated to the company effectively in an appropriate manner.
However we are looking for sharing valuable information here as we don't have anything else right now, so please aim for constructive comments and don't spam the thread with "it aint gonna happen no way" and "i hate you HTC, die cun**ts", herpaderpaderp and so on.
Sobbing, ranting or being cynical does not help at all, in fact does the opposite. <<<
::::: So guys, we can choose wether moaning about the shortcomings of our phone or actually do something about it even if one isn't a dev. Based on the info you find here and on these forums, write an email to HTC, some of us have done it already. We have nothing to lose and a pro-active collective attitude can make real change. In fact that's the only thing that does
CLICK to write to HTC
if you run out of space in the provided text-box, alternatively you can contact them here:
http://www.htc.com/uk/contact/email/
However, expect to get a well-bred canned reply with no actual help at all, but as an example look at the recent Amaze 4G success story (thanks for odunluzikkim and sakindia123 for pointing out).
You have to realise our strength is in collective effort, and its success is depending on each one of us, seriously.
To educate yourself in the topic:
-- about the success of the Amaze 4G community:
http://www.change.org/petitions/htc...ivers-sourcecode-associated-with-the-amaze-4g
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1679112
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1557500
-- about HTC's violations and company attitude:
http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/43185.html
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-c...ore-decisive?utm_source=ac&utm_medium=twitter
-- about the competition and HTC's situation on the market:
http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/as-s...-different-financial-results-can-htc-survive/
http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Samsung+Snag+99+of+Mobile+Phone+Profits+/article24616.htm
-- about software licensing:
http://www.fsf.org/about/
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/bsd/license.html
http://pthree.org/2007/08/08/bsd-license-explained-in-layman-terms/
And finally, if you believe this is a good cause and benefits for the whole Android and Open-Source Community:
) ) ) ) ) SPREAD THE WORD! ( ( ( ( (
- Include this or the petition in your signature and blog and write about it in forums. Click to download the press pack or the avatar pack
- Use Twitter, Facebook, G+ and all your social networks to tweet, share, post about it and about HTC's ignorant attitude
- Bombard @HTC and @HTCdev Twitter and Facebook and express the issue
More on #HASHTAGS will follow later -
Stay tuned
How and What to Write
Known issues with official support that hinders us in development:
Source code of the WiFi driver called "ath6kl_sdio.ko", that prevents the porting of fully functioning custom ROMs like CM9/10, AOKP and so on
S-OFF
ICS 4.04
Bootloader or Stock Kernel bug that causes reboot in Recovery
And we have the lack of Jelly Bean issue, but honestly I believe it is part of HTC's marketing policy, and asking them for it would be like asking Apple to build SD card slot in iPhones lol. Officially it is not gonna happen. But I also believe porting JB will happen sooner or later regardless if they care or not, and if they can make our devs' work easier with something, that is even better.
However given the situation, our priority now is the precious ath6kl_sdio.ko driver. And we will get it one way or an other So the emails and our petition should be focused on that, we can deal with the rest once we have this.
::::: Sooo, you want to write an email to HTC? Let our voice be heard and spam the hell out of them! But we need to do it professionally Have a good read on hasoon2000's thread from the Amaze 4G forum, it's amazing what these guys have been gone through. They have tried literally EVERYTHING and they were ready to push it even further.
The Battle Plan, Phase 1:
Phase 1 Operation “ath6kl_sido.ko”
Email Awareness Campaign;
This campaign will be a focused in two pronged strategy to HTC. The idea behind this is to create awareness within HTC that ;
(a) There is a problem with the Desire C software that needs to be addressed
(b) That we will not back down from this issue
(c) That the standard emails from support agents are not good enough and getting us nowhere
(d) That we would like the problem escalated to the appropriate division
(e) That we get a clear and defined answer to the problem from HTC
With this in mind we will embark on the following strategy;
i. Design four emails to HTC, hardcore and soft core, Desire C user and Non desire c users. DONE
ii. Orchestrate a combined email drive to htc support and htc public relations departments on Monday 8th April starting at 12:00 gmt
iii. These emails will be sent as close together as possible
iv. The troops will select a mail of the four templates that they comfortable with and adjust them if need be
v. That the emails will go to the following email addresses only: [email protected] (Vice President of Global Communications & Public Affairs); [email protected]
vi. This strategy will be implemented for one week only and then we will change tactics.
vii. To involve as many people as possible, including, family members and friends who do not belong to XDA
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A couple of things to consider before writing your email:
--- "ath6kl_sdio.ko" was released by Atheros Communications Inc. under dual BSD/GPL license.
Apparently this means they are not obliged to release the code, since BSD - in contrast to GPL -, allows them to keep it if they want to. Dual BSD/GPL means they are free to choose either of the licenses:
- GPL grants that the code stays open source, once it has been reused it has to be released by law, no matter how mighty the company is there is no way around it, and this is why corporations don't like it, obviously it is set against the capitalist framework, and this is why open source loves it.
- BSD is also a free software license, but it allows you to take the free code and not giving it back to the open source community.
We can safely assume HTC chose the second option.
Basically we have to accept the fact that legally, they have the right to keep the code. On the other hand it is not a good fashion from them to do so, and we have to highlight this to them and to anyone out there on every possible channels. This is what means "giving them a bad PR".
--- From a point of marketing efficiency: HTC has been doing quite badly for while now against their competition, who recognised the asset in the co-operation with communities like ours. More support means more trustable brand image and stronger customer base. They are losing market due to being closed-minded.
--- Brand image: which company wants to be known for **** support, especially if they are openly state the opposite. On the main page of www.htcdev.com can be read:
HTC is constantly pushing to create the ultimate experience for developers. Now you can access the tools you need to make great things happen.
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- sounds quite embarrassing after flicking through the pages of this thread...
--- Keeping the code is very questionable ethically, this is what also russell664 was pointing out in his emails. This is a rational we can stick to, because there is simply no reason to keep the source code away from us, other then a stubborn and static marketing model, which is being proven to be outdated, inefficient and unsustainable. They are hoping an upheaval from One X and Sense 5, which is great, but the other companies have great new stuff too plus a loyal customer base, boooo....
--- Keeping the Desire C source code is not a question of life and death to them, but rather an initial decision which follows an outdated marketing model which leaves the open source initiative, like ours out of consideration (A clever company however grabs every bit of opportunity to turn it into profit). This is why we have to make them aware that we are here and we want the code, and we are not going to stop until they release it.
--- HTC is a huge company with bureaucratic structure. Convincing them won't be an easy task, be prepared to for a long and tough struggle. For the guys in Amaze 4G forum took 7 month. However they already have pioneered this before us which hopefully makes our job a bit easier. We just have to follow their example.
Be adult (even if you are not) and consider these before you post "...they don't help us... :crying:" etc. Know that they won't acknowledge their mistake or tell you "here is the driver, mr. xda member desire c user". Remember it is not a person but a corporate entity we are talking to at the end.
Do your homework:
Everyone who is concerned, please read through hasoon2000's thread, there is everything you need to know about how to deal with HTC. It is 30 pages but if you don't, you have no right to complain y u no have CM9
Let me quote the enlightening words of negotiation-master hasoon2000 from this post:
Remember, HTC is a huge company. You can't send an email like this
Y u know releaze da driverz 4 da Desiya See.
You have to be professional with them, at all times.
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Read ALL my posts so you can see my professionalism and CALL THEM OUT! Don't accept what they have to say. Frankly, I don't care what they say because I know what they will say. You need to attract attention and give them bad PR, professionally of course. After months of working on it and teaching people, they finally released the source.
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Unified template? Don't even. If I received multiple emails of the same thing with the only difference is the name, I wouldn't care because you didn't actually make an effort to convince me. Everyone has different experiences with different manufacturers, phones, etc. Tell them your story, why you got the Desire C. Whether it's because you have a budget or you don't want the latest and greatest phone. Maybe because you like the size of the phone or you have small hands. Whatever it may be, they had a reason for you to buy the phone or everything else. Tell them why you bought it, how you want to customize the phone with your hard earned money.
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These guys are corporate people. All they want is money. Find statistics on how HTC is losing sales and how Samsung/Apple are getting more market share. Tell them how HTC is losing customers and exposure over something small. Compressing the source code takes no more than 2 minutes. Uploading it takes a few minutes. Is that REALLY going to kill them? No, unless they don't release the source code. Tell them how Samsung was not developer friendly in the beginning and when they became developer friendly, look at them now. They are making BANK! HTC could do the same IF they weren't being assholes. When someone sees how cool a phone is when it has a custom ROM, people will start purchasing from that manufacturer because of the cool stuff it can do. Tell them all these things! Look at the Amaze 4G, we got out source.
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And now some examples of his correspondence with the company. Look at how he did not let them to overwhelm him and get away with bullsh*it. He broke the same canned responses what we already got, and gained attention with sheer logic:
Here is what I wrote:
HTC has made a promise to help to development community by releasing the source code as well as unlocking the bootloader for their devices. However, the TI WLAN source code has been withheld from the community. This slows development and can even cease development for the device completely. Without the source code, developers will have to develop blindly and hoping not to break anything in the process. The Amaze 4G has great potential due to his hardware and power that it harnesses. Android is an Open Source OS, but HTC is sounding more like Apple, holding their source from the public. People purchased the device to experience the "Real Feel" of Android by customizing it, installing Custom ROMs, tweaking it, etc. Without the WLAN source code, we, as a community, have starting to lose faith in HTC and some of us have even pledged to never purchase an HTC device again due to HTC's policies. The community will like for HTC to rethink their strategy and be "Open" with the community. The best form of advertisement is by "The Word-of-Mouth". When our community, the tech savvy and the owners of a smartphone, see how HTC listens to their customers requests, they will become more profitable and retain/gain new and loyal customers.
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Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can lead to more business and brand loyalty.
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HTC responded to me
Dear Odai,
I understand you would like to have certain source codes like the WLAN drivers to the development community. I realize that this information is of great importance to you. The only source code we have available is the full source code available on the HTC Developer website at http://htcdev.com. We do not currently have an option to send individual parts of the source code separately. Any parts of the kernel source code that are not included in the released source code on the website should be considered propriety and not available for release. Please visit http://htcdev.com/contact to leave comments about this feature. I thank you for sending your email to HTC today.
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My response to that
Since HTC is committed to helping the development community, hence HTCDev has been started, there have been a fair share of issues that is being withheld from us. There has been a lack of support for certain devices since new flagship phones have been released. For example, the HTC Amaze 4G is a device with great hardware, but HTC has not given us full support due to the face of the HTC One series being released. As a business student, I understand what is being done. HTC would like their new flagship phones to sell and give less support to older devices. However, we are being left out and since this is my first non-Nokia device, I feel betrayed by HTC already. I purchased the Amaze 4G due to its hardware and I know it can unleash its true potential, only with the help of HTC. However, this is not the case. There are devices with over 10 custom made kernels and how many does the Amaze have? Only one and that is for Gingerbread and it has slight modifications since the full source has not be released. This is a huge setback to us users. We have barely any type of custom ROMs. We have not AOSP (Android Open Source Project) ROMs since we need the full kernel source to even make a kernel that is compatible with AOSP ROMs.
The Sensation development is sky high booming with plenty of developers. As a developer for the HTC Amaze 4G, looking at the Sensation development is heart breaking. The Amaze is truly better, but yet has no support from those who created it. It is like leaving a baby in the street. You do not do that.
HTC needs to realize for those who purchase their devices and would like to retain loyalty to HTC, HTC needs to treat their customers back as well. Without us, HTC is nothing.
As I stated earlier, this is my first Non-Nokia device and I already feel betrayed by HTC. If HTC cannot fix their act and be committed to those purchase their devices, they will lose customers significantly.
There should be a way to release the full source to us HTC Amaze 4G owners by talking to other companies that have their hardware in the Amaze. If that cannot be done, this will be my first and last HTC device ever.
So do what you can and stay committed to your program for us HTC users. Without your support, we feel betrayed since the company is not living up to their word. For us, it is hypocrisy while you guys believe it is business. The best business is customer support. If customers are not given what they have been truly promised, HTC might as well just shut down or reallocate to another industry. Just my opinions and my response.
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The responded to my message.
I can definitely understand how the previous agent’s answer would make you upset. I’ll be glad to help you, Odai. By law, all that we are required to release is the kernel source code. HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC, as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
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My response
Samuel, thank you for responding. Danielle blew off my message and that is not great customer service. However, I see conflicting interests from messages I have been told as well as other. Some of the users have been told
"HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community."
Also, "Hello, (name omitted), and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!"
Why are the messages all conflicting? Some say it is not required, some say you have to wait 90 - 120 days when devices, like the Sensation, received the source code within 2 weeks of the ICS release. The management is either terrible or the staff is not properly trained.
Do you see why we are not happy with HTC? High Tech Computers is what HTC stands for, correct? HTC is also looking to help out the development community, correct? The only company that TRULY believes in the development community is Samsung. They acknowledged the work at XDA-Developers.com and they see how important it is to get in touch with those who love to customize their devices. Without releasing the source code to use so we can take advantage of OUR devices, you'll end up with unsatisfied customers and you will lose loyal customers. As a first time owner of an HTC device, I am pretty mad that I can't truly take advantage of it. I worked for T-Mobile for a few years and sold many HTC and Samsung phones. I always saw the Samsung owners are able to have full and true control of their devices. It is not the same however, with HTC.
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Remember folks! TAKE INITIATIVE! CALL THEM OUT! TELL THEM WHAT OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING! Be a man! lol
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Can I say progress?
Dear Odai,
Thanks for getting back to me, Odai. I’m honestly not sure why there is conflicting information. The first email that you quoted contains the correct information. The time frame that we generally release new kernels is 90 to 120 days. Though I don’t know why the Sensation’s source code was available so soon, there’s no reason I can see why the Amaze’s wouldn’t be released within the 90 to 120 time frame previously mentioned. Since the Amaze 4G is part of the bootloader unlock program, the latest source code will be posted to htcdev.com when available. Due to the inconsistency of the responses you’ve seen, I can definitely understand why you and others would be so unhappy. Personally, I’m going to do what I can to make sure this addressed and prevent conflicting and misinformation in the future. I agree with you that members of the developer community have the right to this information and only with that can they push their devices to the limit. If there’s anything else I can do for you, please let me know. Thanks again for taking the time to contact us and for being an HTC customer.
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My response
Samuel, I am glad that you have acknowledged the issues and the inconsistency in the messages we are given. I commend you for that.
As a Recognized Developer on XDA-Developers, as well as speaking on behalf of the Amaze 4G community, we would like HTC to work a deal with us. We need the source code, the full source code I should say, to help our development for the Amaze.
Reasons are as follows:
1. It will retain customer loyalty.
2. It will increase in sales/customer database.
3. Receiving a better name for the company.
I will explain how it will for each reason.
1. As I have stated, it will retain customer loyalty. When customers see the company taking care of them and fully addressing their issues, customers will be happy, even if the problem is not fixed. They see HTC cares and tries to do their best. HTC has well built all around devices and that is why customers continue purchasing HTC devices.
2. The sales number will increase. It may be a slight amount, but when customers enjoy their phones, they will continue purchasing the devices in the future. When I show my friends what my phone can do, it blows their mind. I have friends who purchase the phone I have because I show them what it can do and what their phones cannot do. Remember, the best advertisement is word-of-mouth.
3. A company should be a people company. HTC shows that they care about the development community by opening HTCDev. That is wonderful to see someone has been paying attention to us. Samsung does promotions specifically for XDA-Developers. They have truly recognized our community and they even hired a developer! HTC should see how big the customer base of XDA-Developers, CyanogenMod, RootzWiki and many other development websites/forums. When they show true interest in us, we will defend the company if someone speaks bad about it, etc.
All the reasons tie in with one another. Samuel, I believe you should pass our conversation along to the higher management. They should not blow our community off.
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Are you guys taking notes??
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Another response
Dear Odai,
I really appreciate all the feedback you’ve given us, Odai. I can definitely take and forward our conversation to management. Hopefully through this we can get you guys some more support. If there’s ever anything else I can do for you, just let me know. I hope you have a good weekend, and thanks again for reaching out to us.
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You guys REALLY need to do the same as I did! BRING IT TO THEIR ATTENTION!
Read the conversation. Look at my writing style. See how I took the initiative and yet, I was 100% professional?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, you enjoyed the reading I hope
Finally, here are the points to bear in mind, ALWAYS:
When you contact them initially, the agent handles you as a retard by default: answers to questions you didn't ask or just simply gives stupid answers. Not because he is a bad person or high on drugs, but not trained on solving such a case. If it becomes apparent that they cannot manage your query, the maximum they can do is to escalate the case, but again, it depends on the agent, towards which department does he/she do that, it can vary. But if we push it through, at the end this will be more efficient since they will be having the same case coming from all over the departments of the company, and the managers of each of these departments will have to notice us as a community with strong commitment, among the usual "how to change my battery" or "my dog swallowed my Wildfire, you gonna pay for this" type of emails. If your first email fits to the text box provided on www.htcdev.com, then the best is if you send your email there.
The point is that their ridiculous initial ignorance actually pays off for you, because you can embarrass them by facing them with their own outcrying stupidity, such as they don't even know their own devices. Complain about their poor customer support and give examples why until they have to take you seriously, and believe me - they will. After this most possibly you will get a new agent who uses less template and replies to your actual questions, and not like an answering-bot. But for this, you need get though the initial impersonal template-using phase. So again please, don't post their reply with comments like "wtf thats weird" and "thats a whole load of bullcraq and [email protected]*%trash" - otherwise everyone will think you are childish. Don't be naive and expect their initial style, which will change if you don't behave like a child, trust me.
Also aim to post their reply with yours, with the one you replied, to keep the ball rolling. You have the chance to be more pro-active here, this is what we need, don't just paste it passively and then expect we will munching on it. We already have seen enough of those emails, show us your initiative! And don't leave your first email out of the conversation, so other members can benefit from your words. Don't be shy, everyone has to start somehow and we are here to help each other.
And most importantly, you will have to maintain a professional manner, otherwise you lose your advantage as a serious and self-aware customer you have against them.
>>>>>>>>
Here is what I wrote (thanks for whoamigriffiths for the english check). You can follow the lines of these and hasoon2000's original email, but please make it personal, don't just copy-paste it. Remember what he told us here. Explain them what you want and why you want it, why it is important to us and why co-operation is beneficial for both of us, and why the lack of real co-operation is not. Also, express that you are writing in the name of the whole community. You can mention our forum had more then 2.000.000 views since it was founded in July 2012.
And most importantly, be explicit. Always state that you want the source code of the WiFi driver "ath6kl_sdio.ko".
They will continue to hear about us Wether they like it or not.
Dear HTC,
I belong to a thriving community of Desire C users and developers. We like this phone very much and chose it for numerous reasons, price was not the only factor.
Personally I like its small size which still comes with an attractive design and relatively good performance.
For me, these features helped me decide to choose this phone, not only over others in the same category, but over more expensive devices on the market - hands down.
However the lack of substantive official support for our phone hinders us in further enhancing this already great little device.
We as a community are well aware that certain things, like official Jelly Bean support is unlikely to happen for various reasons that are both out of our reach as well as out of your reach too as a Company.
But speaking in the name of our Community, I am asking you to kindly enhance your customer support and, like your competitors, release more source code for us to use.
The most important code that we need is:
- the source code of the WiFi driver "ath6kl_sdio.ko" that is not present in the kernel source
Without it the porting of fully functioning custom ROMs like the famous CyanogenMod, AOSP and AOKP is not possible.
We have been fond of HTC since the Hero came out, which was the first phone on the market that was cool enough to compete with iPhone.
Also we have appreciated the Companys attitude in opening up to the Open-Source Community in the past by setting up HTCdev.com, that has been providing help for Independent Developers.
We aim to further strengthen this co-operation and believe together we can work for even better devices that are more customised according to the users needs.
This makes us - your more adventurous customers - happier and our work on this device has to be for the good of everyone: us, HTC and quite possibly, both new phones and new customers in the future.
A better support now, also makes it possible for us to tell everyone in the Open-Source Community that HTC is one of those rare Companies which honestly cares for its users.
With kindest regards,
Your Name
from XDA Developers HTC Desire C Community
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Soon, like the Amaze 4G guys we will release a petition, which will be addressed to Peter Chou, the CEO of HTC. Until then write your emails and stay optimist regardless of the response, remember the positive example in front of us. Stay focused on what we want and be persistent. No need to get angry, simply because we are part of something which is incomparably stronger then them:laugh:
Great job starting this thread :good: .Hopefully all the desire c users from our forum will support this and our device can finally get the attention it deserves
Re: Emails to HTC
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
Yup great idea . Hopefully we can keep this thread positive
Apex-Predator said:
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
are you sure? i'm asking because had been like this before. did you read this link? this thread? it's worked before.
Apex-Predator said:
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think emailing HTC and asking help from Pico devs doesn't exclude each other. We do whatever we can, and all the help is appreciated really much, as already it is from you guys We are pulling ourselves together for bigger horizons.
As far as i'm concerned, we need to annoy HTC to prove that there is a user base that requires support. Weather that support is in the form of jellybean or the source code of the kernel with WIFI modules. The point is as many others will agree is that HTC is a hand out and forget company they release nice little phones, and leave them unsupported, which is wrong, we need to get HTC's attention on this matter, me for one am sending multiple emails to them asking why they will not do anything, and if they can release some more source code.
Hopefully we can make something of this thread, keep it positive and post your emails from HTC here so everyone can see what they say about the matter.
The devs should focus on a CM9 setup, leave HTC devs behind, yes there open source would help but they wont help due to no money involved, the push the power of this phone it looses them money on the bigger phones (One X etc) our devs have the ability to make a CM9 or JB rom, support our devs!!!!
XDroidie626 said:
The devs should focus on a CM9 setup, leave HTC devs behind, yes there open source would help but they wont help due to no money involved, the push the power of this phone it looses them money on the bigger phones (One X etc) our devs have the ability to make a CM9 or JB rom, support our devs!!!!
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Click to collapse
hey XDroidie626, I agree with you that the reason for lack of support is that there is no money incentive behind it, but there is also a vested interest for the big companies to support open-source communities, which pays off indirectly for them and it is good for everyone, and it's an increasing trend. I think emialing HTC and supporting our devs do not exclude each other, we put in whatever we can
stick
I think the thread should be sticked, as it is for raising awareness for new and existing members. If you think it too, report it through the reporting service and ask for making it stick.
Okay I contacted them, and this is what I got:
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding your HTC Desire C.
My name is Rob and I am a Technical Support Agent for the HTC Written Team.
I understand you are missing the Wi-Fi modules in the kernel source code.
I'm afraid we do not have the facility to send certain parts of the source code. If you are not able to find the part you are looking for, please then follow the HTC Dev Twitter. Any additional releases will be posted on here.
HTC Dev twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.
I am confident that this will resolve your query, in the unlikely event that this does not please call or instant chat to one of our Technical Support Agents who will be waiting to guide you through step by step. Our Contact Details can be found at www.htc.com/uk/contact
Should you wish to continue your correspondence via email then please reply using the link below
Not one bit of help
guys forget jB .. htc one v doesnt have it so does desire c ... look for ics 4.0.4 with sense 4.1 !!
Re: [INFO] Emails to HTC
russell664 said:
Okay I contacted them, and this is what I got:
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding your HTC Desire C.
My name is Rob and I am a Technical Support Agent for the HTC Written Team.
I understand you are missing the Wi-Fi modules in the kernel source code.
I'm afraid we do not have the facility to send certain parts of the source code. If you are not able to find the part you are looking for, please then follow the HTC Dev Twitter. Any additional releases will be posted on here.
HTC Dev twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.
I am confident that this will resolve your query, in the unlikely event that this does not please call or instant chat to one of our Technical Support Agents who will be waiting to guide you through step by step. Our Contact Details can be found at www.htc.com/uk/contact
Should you wish to continue your correspondence via email then please reply using the link below
Not one bit of help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I told ya
They won't help !!!
U guys need to find our own ways
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
Post this thread on your Twitter, Facebook etc!
Email sended :3
@alex-predator, i asking you again. did you read this? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1679112
really, not to be so pessimistic.
russell664 said:
Not one bit of help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not surprising, but we have to keep pushing to reach a critical mass
utsav17 said:
guys forget jB .. htc one v doesnt have it so does desire c ... look for ics 4.0.4 with sense 4.1 !!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please read this post, no one is hoping for official JB here.
Apex-Predator said:
I told ya
They won't help !!!
U guys need to find our own ways
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No one said it is going to happen by writing an email, and as I said to keep contacting HTC by the entire community doesn't exclude finding our own ways in developing, in fact this is what our devs are doing right now.
And to everyone who is reading this, from now on I would really appreciate if you only posted constructive comments, this thread is not for gloating or giving out frustrations but to help to make things happen. Thank you!
Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC technical support.
I appreciate you taking the time to provide us with some feedback regarding what you would like to see us provide to better assist you and other members of the development community, Andrew.
I will certainly notate your feedback for consideration with regards to providing specific source codes and providing an S-Off option in the future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure, they have given me a "positive" answer...in the future....
TheRedHunter said:
Sure, they have given me a "positive" answer...in the future....
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Click to collapse
These are 100% the expected responses, we just have to keep pushing on a regular basis, all of us.
Suggestion
I know that other thread asked for people to write from the heart etc in an attempt(successful) to get things done
But
And this is just a suggestion from personal experience.
The majority of people are likely to read a thread like this and nod in agreement , then do nothing about it.
It might be good if someone wrote a 'template' email for people to copy and paste as well as the link to the email of HTC (Already includedI know).
You might find you get a much better response from the people who read (and don't generally participate)the Forum.
I know HTC will see the same email over and over BUT they will be from different people and phone numbers . It will in effect become a written protest from desire c owners.
I purchased 2 of these phones in April because there seemed to be a decent support base for it here on XDA. But I have found that the support is lacking and nonexistent in the 3 months since I bought them. Custom ROMS have been posted, only to be left in limbo. Questions from users go totally ignored and unanswered. I am not a developer, so like most users I rely on those of you who are skilled in that expertise for our custom firmware. But I have to say that in the 7 years I have been a member here I have never seen such poor interaction from the developers.
I guess this forum has just become a reflection of the current attitudes lack of respect and concern in the world that exists today.
Try telegram.... There is probably 5 or six threads for our devices....
KtownJeff said:
Try telegram.... There is probably 5 or six threads for our devices....
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Click to collapse
This is the most bland blanket statement being swung around in every ****ing thread. If the developers can not be arsed to actually interact with the community in the forum they posted their ROM in, then they can just stay away entirely. I have no respect for people simply opening a thread and then link people to a telegram group because they are too lazy to actually use a forum.
I'm very tempted to report threads for closure since they appear to be abandoned.
I'd rather have no development than development hiding itself behind a ****ty chat-app.
KtownJeff said:
Try telegram.... There is probably 5 or six threads for our devices....
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Click to collapse
Seriously? Talk about a lame solution.
jadephyre said:
This is the most bland blanket statement being swung around in every ****ing thread. If the developers can not be arsed to actually interact with the community in the forum they posted their ROM in, then they can just stay away entirely. I have no respect for people simply opening a thread and then link people to a telegram group because they are too lazy to actually use a forum.
I'm very tempted to report threads for closure since they appear to be abandoned.
I'd rather have no development than development hiding itself behind a ****ty chat-app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree 100%. :good::good::good::good::good:
jadephyre said:
This is the most bland blanket statement being swung around in every ****ing thread. If the developers can not be arsed to actually interact with the community in the forum they posted their ROM in, then they can just stay away entirely. I have no respect for people simply opening a thread and then link people to a telegram group because they are too lazy to actually use a forum.
I'm very tempted to report threads for closure since they appear to be abandoned.
I'd rather have no development than development hiding itself behind a ****ty chat-app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry you feel this way I was just offering a solution to help you with your issue but you know I do understand because I had the same thought at first but I think it is pretty cool to have real time discussion.....
Also our device is not limited to just this thread..... I spend my day switching ROMs with trebel based GSI....Oh and they get updated security every month and using our device all of the moto gestures show up in the rom because we still use the moto vender..... And if you really want to see some development start reading about compiling kernels..right now Im building a custom kernel for device.....
pastorbob62 said:
I purchased 2 of these phones in April because there seemed to be a decent support base for it here on XDA. But I have found that the support is lacking and nonexistent in the 3 months since I bought them. Custom ROMS have been posted, only to be left in limbo. Questions from users go totally ignored and unanswered. I am not a developer, so like most users I rely on those of you who are skilled in that expertise for our custom firmware. But I have to say that in the 7 years I have been a member here I have never seen such poor interaction from the developers.
I guess this forum has just become a reflection of the current attitudes lack of respect and concern in the world that exists today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
maybe you could become a developer yourself and show us how it should be done?
which in case of Motorola is to develop software for like 10 devices a year + interact on forums etc. + try to solve all kinds of people's problems
all in your free time, not being paid for anything
Now I'm curious
Lupask said:
maybe you could become a developer yourself and show us how it should be done?
which in case of Motorola is to develop software for like 10 devices a year + interact on forums etc. + try to solve all kinds of people's problems
all in your free time, not being paid for anything
Now I'm curious
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I knew the second I wrote my original post some clueless person would come back in defense of poor support and lack of interaction playing the "developers are overworked and do it for nothing" card. And then there is the ever present "if you don't like the way it's done do the developing yourself" joker. But it doesn't fly when somebody posts 3 or 4 ROMs and then totally ignores all questions and issues within this forum not just for days but for weeks and months. How about focusing on 1 ROM and dealing with it rather than over extending oneself and dealing with nothing? As I said, this is the first device I have seen this type of poor support and neglect. That is because on all of my previous 5 MOTOROLA, 2 Asus, 1 Huaweii, and 3 Samsung devices the developers stayed focused on 1 or 2 ROMS and didn't try to recreate the world. And in all of those cases I and many other users donated generously to the developers. Doing a lousy job at something you commit to and then saying "I don't get paid anyway" is not excusable. And defending the poor support and lousy interactions with those lame excuses just makes you a part of the problem. As I said in my post, it is simply a reflection of the attitudes in the world around us.
The problem is that too many users don't even know what they're doing. They do not want to acquire knowledge themselves and expect a solution and an explanation for everything.
By now I say to many users here they should inform themselves. This forum can provide help with problems, but cannot explain everything to everyone. The most common questions here are "I have a bootloop", "what does
encryption mean and why I'm not able to access my data", "why TWRP should only be booted and why does flashing to recovery fail", "should I install TWRP again after I updated my device" and so on... There is currently a user who is trying to mount TWRP in Windows and tells me at the same time that he has already rooted various devices.
Somewhere in between is a single user of 20 with a real problem but he doesn't get noticed.
pastorbob62 said:
I knew the second I wrote my original post some clueless person would come back in defense of poor support and lack of interaction playing the "developers are overworked and do it for nothing" card. And then there is the ever present "if you don't like the way it's done do the developing yourself" joker. But it doesn't fly when somebody posts 3 or 4 ROMs and then totally ignores all questions and issues within this forum not just for days but for weeks and months. How about focusing on 1 ROM and dealing with it rather than over extending oneself and dealing with nothing? As I said, this is the first device I have seen this type of poor support and neglect. That is because on all of my previous 5 MOTOROLA, 2 Asus, 1 Huaweii, and 3 Samsung devices the developers stayed focused on 1 or 2 ROMS and didn't try to recreate the world. And in all of those cases I and many other users donated generously to the developers. Doing a lousy job at something you commit to and then saying "I don't get paid anyway" is not excusable. And defending the poor support and lousy interactions with those lame excuses just makes you a part of the problem. As I said in my post, it is simply a reflection of the attitudes in the world around us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But this is a different issue. I can't and will not defend that someone creates a ROM, publishes it and forgets about it. And then another, and another. I am also sad that dev's time is spent/wasted on something useless at the end of the day, while they could help to develop something actually alive. I am also sad that there are numberless modifications and tinkering, all of them dealing with similar bugs and problems, while having minimal differences, and not uniting together to create something larger than the sum of all these parts.
And yes, , your original post did sound like whining at other people that they don't create enough software for *your* specific phone and help you solve your specific problems while giving zero effort to solve them yourself. Which is, sadly, a common attitude indeed.
As for me, I don't want to depend on people from XDA to do something that your phone manufacturer was paid to do - if you want support, ask it from there. The phones are not as popular to attract lots of independent development (I believe Motorola is partly to blame here, as they spam the market with too many devices). I'm afraid this is all we got.
Lupask said:
But this is a different issue. I can't and will not defend that someone creates a ROM, publishes it and forgets about it. And then another, and another. I am also sad that dev's time is spent/wasted on something useless at the end of the day, while they could help to develop something actually alive. I am also sad that there are numberless modifications and tinkering, all of them dealing with similar bugs and problems, while having minimal differences, and not uniting together to create something larger than the sum of all these parts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree 100%. That is basically what my post is trying to address.
Lupask said:
And yes, , your original post did sound like whining at other people that they don't create enough software for *your* specific phone and help you solve your specific problems while giving zero effort to solve them yourself. Which is, sadly, a common attitude indeed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good heavens no! If you look at my history and go back the 7 years I have been here, you would find that I have been and will remain very active in helping others and solving my own problems. I have taken part in Alpha and Beta testing for developers. Have I gotten lazy on occasion and asked before searching? Sure. Who hasn't? But that is most definitely not my standard mode of operation. I make it a habit to search and research as much as possible before I ask.
Lupask said:
As for me, I don't want to depend on people from XDA to do something that your phone manufacturer was paid to do - if you want support, ask it from there. The phones are not as popular to attract lots of independent development (I believe Motorola is partly to blame here, as they spam the market with too many devices). I'm afraid this is all we got.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, unless you are dealing with issues brought on by unlocking, rooting and installing custom software/roms. Go to Motorola and ask a question about those issues and you will get shut down immediately. "Sorry! Your warranty is void and we can't help you. And many users (like myself) buy models not available in the USA so there is no support from Motorola at the get go.
That is the whole purpose of XDA. Community support and development. Granted, there are those who will abuse it and not make any effort whatsoever to find the answer and fix it themselves. They deserve to be ignored. But if you put a mod or rom or app on here then by golly, at least support it.
I believe we are pretty much on the same page just took a couple of exchanges to get here. :good:
..
---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------
I reached a point where I basically gave up. I'm not a developer but I like to fiddle with my devices and add a better experience with customizations. I had a Moto G5S and tried to add a custom ROM based on Android 10 but none of them worked well. I spent an absurd amount of time trying to make them work at least in an acceptable way, with no success. I gave up, reinstalled the original 8.1 Android version and moved to a Moto G7 Plus with no root and only GCAM. When I get tired of Android 10, I'll buy a new cellphone with Android 11 or 12.
The lessons I learned are:
- I cannot complain for what I received for free
- I cannot oblige someone to fix for free what is not working for me
- it seems to be increasingly difficult to make things work if you have no access to the internal development of a cellphone's manufacturer
- I will change my purchasing habits: I prefer to buy another device after 1,5 years with the latest Android and hardware specs than fighting to make my 3-yr old device run with a modified system that has no guarantee from the manufacturer.
- I do not have the money to buy expensive devices, I prefer to buy something above the basic and replace it more frequently.
- I respect the developers and I'm not mad at them, I am sure they are learning a lot when creating these custom ROMs and this will take them to a better job (I hope)
- I agree that XDA has changed for worse in the aspect of "community-based development". The interaction in the forum is really going downward, this is the same with other forums I participate. People are moving to "immediate answer" options like whatsapp and Telegram, which I hate because they do not have the organized structure and historic documentation a forum provides.
---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------
I reached a point where I basically gave up. I'm not a developer but I like to fiddle with my devices and add a better experience with customizations. I had a Moto G5S and tried to add a custom ROM based on Android 10 but none of them worked well. I spent an absurd amount of time trying to make them work at least in an acceptable way, with no success. I gave up, reinstalled the original 8.1 Android version and moved to a Moto G7 Plus with no root and only GCAM. When I get tired of Android 10, I'll buy a new cellphone with Android 11 or 12.
The lessons I learned are:
- I cannot complain for what I received for free
- I cannot oblige someone to fix for free what is not working for me
- it seems to be increasingly difficult to make things work if you have no access to the internal development of a cellphone's manufacturer
- I will change my purchasing habits: I prefer to buy another device after 1,5 years with the latest Android and hardware specs than fighting to make my 3-yr old device run with a modified system that has no guarantee from the manufacturer.
- I do not have the money to buy expensive devices, I prefer to buy something above the basic and replace it more frequently.
- I respect the developers and I'm not mad at them, I am sure they are learning a lot when creating these custom ROMs and this will take them to a better job (I hope)
- I agree that XDA has changed for worse in the aspect of "community-based development". The interaction in the forum is really going downward, this is the same with other forums I participate. People are moving to "immediate answer" options like whatsapp and Telegram, which I hate because they do not have the organized structure and historic documentation a forum provides.
because there seemed to be a decent support base for it here on XDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You judged and found out you were wrong.
But I have found that the support is lacking and nonexistent in the 3 months since I bought them. Custom ROMS have been posted, only to be left in limbo. Questions from users go totally ignored and unanswered.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How much exactly did you pay that made you entitled to this kind of support?
But I have to say that in the 7 years I have been a member here I have never seen such poor interaction from the developers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do not really have to say anything but forums are there for anyone to speak his mind. Even people who think they are entitled to stuff they actually aren't
I guess this forum has just become a reflection of the current attitudes lack of respect and concern in the world that exists today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lack of respect. REALLY?
Get off your high horse!
Your post itself is a reflection of another trend:
Unfounded entitlement.