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www . facebook . com / motorolaeurope / posts / 167417936629785
(remove the spaces, sorry as I'm a new user)
To summarise, a Froyo build (not mentioned which one) has been sent to operators for testing. Guess that would mean a few more months before a build is even released to public. (Right after the announcement for Gingerbread? Ugh.)
---start of rant---
First of all, greetings to all (it's my first post). The Milestone is my first Android phone, and it's a love-hate relationship honestly. I made a mistake not knowing about the locked bootloader (who wouldn't? After all most Android phones don't come with a 2048-bit encrypted bootloader). I believe most Milestone users share the same experience with me, finding out the cruel truth only after purchase.
Why lock? I believe most users have already read the comment from Motorola's CEO, which is to protect users from damaging their phone. (I'll get the source article later.) Seriously? Look at the magic Droid users and developers have churned out.
The Milestone, like the Droid, is a capable phone. Not the best in the market now, but one of the better ones in the same price range.
If Motorola is unable to release updates in time, I personally feel that they should unlock our bootloader, and let the community do the magic. It's after all what people look for when they bought an open-sourced phone.
---end of rant---
I frequent the Milestone development forums (even though I've never left a message simply because I feel that I lack technical knowledge to be commenting on their wonderful works), and love what has been made for Milestone. However, there are limitations definitely, from what I gathered.
I humbly believe that if they unlocked the bootloader, they would change people's views of Motorola worldwide (like when I first got the Milestone, before finding out about the locked bootloader) and in the long run it's definitely beneficial. We're talking about European, Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, Mexican, Canadian (?) and many more markets here, my dear big M.
Is there any petition already started to appeal to Motorola to unlock our bootloaders? After all, Android is about the power of the community.
Sorry for the long message, I just needed to get this off my mind, and would love to hear about views from the amazing xda community. I may be wrong, I may be biased, but I'm just a plain Milestone user.
Oh, I still love my Milestone anyway.
Thanks. =)
it'll probably never get unlocked, but it still sucks. i love being able to do damn neared anything i want to my Droid.
This is taken from engadget.com
HTC is legendary for its tacit support of the Android ROM cooking community. Motorola... not so much, thanks in large part to the company's policy of locking down the bootloader as a means to prevent unapproved software from running on its Droid handsets. An annoyance recently exacperated by a moderator of Moto's YouTube channel who suggested that customers looking to install custom ROMs should "buy elsewhere." Ouch. The resulting public relations kerfuffle then prompted Motorola to publish a clarification to its bootloader policy on Facebook:
We apologize for the feedback we provided regarding our bootloader policy. The response does not reflect the views of Motorola. We are working closely with our partners to offer a bootloader solution that will enable developers to use our devices as a development platform while still protecting our users' interests. More detailed information will follow as we get closer to availability.
Obviously, we'll have wait for said details to get official before calling this a shift in strategy. It's certainly an improvement over Moto's previous approach of lawyering-up with cease and desist orders. Perhaps Motorola is taking a cue from Microsoft who seems to have recently discovered that it's better to embrace than to annoy a motivated hacking community -- customers who tend to be a company's most dedicated fans and evangelists.
Good news?
Direct Link: http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/21/motorola-ready-to-make-sweet-love-to-rom-devs-and-rooters/
its a maybe. maybe they will launch our froyo locked, maybe it'll be open. we never know.
i just read this also. this could be great news or another terrible taunt whih leads to nothing.
im not gonna get my hopes up just yet.
available Q1 of 2046, stay tuned! lol
Sent from my Milestone using XDA App
Sounds like a PR stunt to quell the immediate situation before waiting for it to blow over.
Sent from my Milestone using XDA App
I dont believe in manufaturer, i believe in XDA dev's..... this a "cold water" not a hope for us.
I hope this isn't just some PR bull and moto actually enables us to load custom kernels.
That press release says nothing about unlocking the bootloader, only that they will help devs which could mean anything!
DummyPLUG said:
available Q1 of 2046, stay tuned! lol
Sent from my Milestone using XDA App
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LMFAO!!!
i dnt believe motorolsh!t will do that(unlocking the bootloader)
I so love my new HTC Desire! couldnt stand this situation anymore....! sorry guys...
It is just the usual PR crap which companies like them give when they screw up on the social networking front. The "..buy elsewhere.." was just a such screw up. A Royal one I would say!
They are now trying to calm down the situation by giving us this crap..
I think it's just a excuse about the bad comments in youtube video, nothing more than that.
DummyPLUG said:
available Q1 of 2046, stay tuned!
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2046???
...that seems a little too soon... dont ya think?
Menelkir said:
I think it's just a excuse about the bad comments in youtube video, nothing more than that.
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That seems most likely but perhaps the fallout and bad press from that will push them to do what they should have done long ago, free the bootloader in some form so we can get custom ROMs on it.
Dyonas said:
That seems most likely but perhaps the fallout and bad press from that will push them to do what they should have done long ago, free the bootloader in some form so we can get custom ROMs on it.
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Click to collapse
Yes, I really want to see this happening, but I don't have any hope about Motorola opening the bootloader.
If they do, ok, excelent news to the community, to all developers that will make even better ROMs and for all of us that have a Motorola phone. We can see the quality of alternative ROMs for Motorola Milestone today as example. It's obvious that the only limitation is the bootloader, so the quality can be massively improved if we can change and optimize the kernel.
But I think all people here are already tired from Motorola's position about his costumers: Censorship on comments (youtube and motorola forums), censorship on criticism (even the very good ones, Motorola does not seem to care about the opinion of his costumers), cease and desist in community cases like the ROM of Droid X and sites with roms (that its very stupid IMHO)... and the list goes on...
By the way, my only hope is, if that happens and I have not exchanged my phone yet, good.. I'll make good use of it. But honestly? I have now my last phone from Motorola.
Am I missing something? Forgive my ignorance, but what is "locked up" about the bootloader? I'm running CM6 along with the overclocked CM6 kernel, and there are tons of other custom ROMs out for the Droid as it stands. What is restricted by Motorola?
vapor63 said:
Am I missing something? Forgive my ignorance, but what is "locked up" about the bootloader? I'm running CM6 along with the overclocked CM6 kernel, and there are tons of other custom ROMs out for the Droid as it stands. What is restricted by Motorola?
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Click to collapse
Milestone users cannot use custom kernels. All the AOSP ROMs still have to use the SAME kernel, supplied by Mot. They lock it to the bootloader. This means problems trying to compile modules and customer kernels and no way to patch bugs.
It is much more work for devs to get stuff done for the milestone than other phone (htc comes to mind).
Examples of issues: battery life, phone sleeping, waiting for compatible kernel or hack for new android versions, swap support, vpn support, other filesystem support... the list goes on.
But you allowed to be happy with your phone. Not everybody needs these things...
Sent from my Milestone using Tapatalk
He has a very good point. Where other android device builders seem to be promoting development (Huawei excluded, theyre miser's just like Motorola), this company seems to be more prominent on the restriction of development on their devices.
One very good reason for this is that Motorola has been such a huge phone developer for such a long time, that they have probably let it go to their head. Now instead of saying "our consumers said they need this", they're sayin "we think they really only need this." I've used Motorola phones for about 8 years now, and I would DEFINITELY say someone forgot that their customers put them where their at.
I agree. Someone needs to get out there and give them a taste of Good Customer Service. I dont think restricting dev's is a great marketing idea, or revenue booster anyways. BUt then again, to each, his own.
This is PR.Nothing more.
Know motorola they do not update РСТ(Russian legal)Milestone, they do not
need to unlock this crap bootloader.
We seem to have a lot of confusion in the Atrix forum about the implications of an encrypted and or locked bootloader.
What is a bootloader?
See this article for a decent description.
Is the bootloader on the Atrix encrypted?
We don't know and likely will not know until the phone is released and people smarter than I can look at it. No reviews, including the Engadget review, have looked at whether the bootloader is encrypted. However, some have inaccurately said that it is because the installation of non-market apps is not permitted the bootloader is encrypted. However, this is a separate issue and is a requirement imposed by ATT that has nothing to do with the bootloader.
Why do people assume the bootloader is encypted?
Motorola has a strong recent history of releasing encrypted bootloaders, see the Droid X and Milestone phones. Most of the current discussion about the bootloader is limited to what we have seen from Motorola in the past. That being said, there is some hope that the bootloader will not be encrypted. In prior phones, such as the Droid X and Milestone, Motorola relied on the eFuse feature of Texas Instruments OMAP processors. Given that the Atrix uses an Nvidia Tegra 2 chip it is unlikely that Motorola can utilize the same eFuse technology.
As a result, there is some reason to be optimistic that the Atrix will only have a locked and not encrypted bootloader.
What is the difference between a locked and encrypted bootloader?
This is a good post on the topic. Locked bootloaders are on almost all android phones, including the Nexus S. Although certain locks, such as the Nexus S, are easier to open. A locked bootloader is essentially software that is written in such a way so as to prevent you from gaining access. So far XDA devs have been very skilled at cracking locked bootloaders by finding holes in this software.
An encrypted bootloader, from my understanding, is not itself encrypted, but signed by an encryption key. The phones hardware will refuse to boot unless the software that it attempts to boot is signed with the correct encryption key. The only options to crack this protection appear to be to go around the bootloader which is unlikely or to crack the encryption which also appears unlikely. See this post for more discussion.
What does an encypted bootloader mean to me?
This post at Android Forums provides a great summary of the effects of an encrypted bootloader. If you have the time, the entire thread is very informative.
The bad news is an encrypted bootloader likely means no custom kernels. This means that custom ROMs must rely on the official kernel. It also means the OS version (Froyo, Gingerbread . . .) is limited to whatever the official release is. The good news is that root access is still be possible. Root access allows you to run certain applications as the root or administrator. This allows for a lot of customization and hacking of your phone.
In the end, an encrypted bootloader may hinder your ability to completely hack the phone.
Can an encrypted bootloader be cracked?
Unlikely. For a brief discussion see this post and read the thread for a better understanding. I am aware that there is a team working on cracking the Milestone encryption using the BIONIC platform and a distributed computing effort, see androinc.net. However, even that team admits that the second coming of the dinosaurs may occur before they crack the encryption. I believe on the Milestone that the encryption is 1024 bit, which according to androinc.net may take hundreds of thousands of years to crack using a brute force method, even on a distributed computing platform.
Can a locked bootloader be cracked?
We won't know until we see it, but likely yes. Generally all software coded by humans has some error in it that can be exploited.
Why should I care if the bootloader protection cannot be circumvented?
You don't have to. But, in today's environment, consumers are tied to a 2 year contracts but new phones are released on a 1 year or less timeline. This means the device you buy today will likely be forgotten by your carrier and the phone manufacturer long before your contract is up. The inability to load custom kernels means that consumers cannot upgrade their own phones after the manufacturer decides to no longer support the phone. The decision to stop supporting upgrades often occurs well before a phones 2 year birthday, see the Motorola Upgrade Roadmap.
In addition, many people believe that they have purchased the phone hardware and should be permitted to do anything that they please with the hardware.
** I do not claim to be an expert, I have only recanted the results of my research. If I have made a mistake please let me know.
thanks for writing this i was going to my self today as i have been fighting people all day with this, i was trying to get motorola to tell me as i had a few reps available in a forum and one said that he will get back to me shortly with an answer ... but i was having to do so with people that dont know the difference chiming in and making the q&a with moto hard even for some one who does know what hes talking about ... any how i will update when i get my reply, and thanks again for putting info in right place btw up at top you put milestone instead of atrix
What a great and informative post. THIS SHOULD BE STICKIED for the time being to prevent future threads that ask the same questions. Great job.
Sent from my MSM using XDA App
sdlopez83 said:
What a great and informative post. THIS SHOULD BE STICKIED for the time being to prevent future threads that ask the same questions. Great job.
Sent from my MSM using XDA App
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+1 here, very informative.
Thanks and sorry about the typos.
Nice job both in the layout and in maintaining an unbiased take on the possibilities.
thankyou for explaining that so well
can we get a MOD to sticky this for a while, at least until we know whether it is encrypted or what not. could really cut down on the "does the bootloader restrict me from doing xxxxxxxxxxx?" chatter on all the threads.
+1 Great post! Guess we'll have to wait for quantum computers before we can crack 1024bit encryption in under a lifetime (seconds probably.) But very informative, I'm off to read everything you linked in your post.
Excellent post sir!
Great post! This should be required reading...
That means that if the Atrix 4G is HSUPA disabled, there's no way around it?
royalemint said:
That means that if the Atrix 4G is HSUPA disabled, there's no way around it?
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Click to collapse
please post in the general forum where a thread is going about this. however, it can mostly likely be resolved with a new modem driver.
I have an Atrix 4G in my hand... how can I find out if the bootloader is encrypted?
EGBTMagus said:
I have an Atrix 4G in my hand... how can I find out if the bootloader is encrypted?
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I would like to know also. I know there are other threads about this the only problem is that there are 6 different answers/opinions.
Does not look good:
The Atrix 4G has a locked and encrypted bootloader. More bootloader related announcements are forthcoming.
http://getsatisfaction.com/motorola...tm_medium=email&utm_source=reply_notification
TinyRK said:
Does not look good:
The Atrix 4G has a locked and encrypted bootloader. More bootloader related announcements are forthcoming.
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Click to collapse
... and here just for the record:
https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/45249?start=15&tstart=0
meta96 said:
... and here just for the record:
https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/45249?start=15&tstart=0
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I saw both of those. I am not totally convinced by a PR response, even if it is from Moto. So far the devs here in XDA seem to think it is only signed. I am inclined to believe them more, at least until I see otherwise.
Also, I need to update my OP and will try and do so tonight.
krkeegan said:
I saw both of those. I am not totally convinced by a PR response, even if it is from Moto. So far the devs here in XDA seem to think it is only signed. I am inclined to believe them more, at least until I see otherwise.
https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/45249?start=15&tstart=0
Also, I need to update my OP and will try and do so tonight.
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Click to collapse
... the number of page views for this topic is bad PR, isn't it? It is just a act/react thing, you know ...
Who is your daddy and what does he do?
I dunno why but that's immediately what I thought of, lol
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Visit Groubal and sign the petition: http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
Retweet: http://twitter.com/#!/ibproud/status/52265679990169600
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/unlockmoto
UPDATE (14th June 2011):
We are now over the 10,000 mark.
I have now spoken with Motorola and gotten confirmation that Motorola plan to unlock every device that will get an update in the second half of this year. This will include maintenance & firmware updates, but is still subject to Carrier approval.
The promising sign is that Verizon has already allowed Motorola to unlock a device on their network, the Xoom, which utilizes the unlockable/re-lockable model that Motorola intends on using across their devices.
I'm still looking to work with Motorola in the coming months to help see if we can make this a smooth process for Motorola and the community.
You can read the article here:
http://ausdroid.net/2011/06/14/an-u...witter&utm_campaign=Feed:+ausdroid+(Ausdroid)
Please share this where you can and keep it alive. I will continue to work with Motorola to see if we can get this thing torn wide open.
UPDATE (26th April 2011):
We are now at ~8,700 mark.
Motorola has now responded to me, stating that they are looking at unlocking bootloaders across their devices late 2011.
The article for the story can be found here:
http://ausdroid.net/2011/04/26/the-little-aussie-taking-on-motorola-u-s/#more-8184
We're still seeking clarity around whether this will be for current devices or only future devices.
I couldn't have gotten this far without the support of everyone here. You guys and girls have been a huge support and help me turn this snowball into a wrecking ball.
Please share this where you can and keep it alive. I will continue to work with Motorola to see if we can get this thing torn wide open.
Previous Update (4th April 2011):
We are now at ~7600 mark.
We're starting to slow down from our initial boom, so I have now set up a Facebook page to see if we can wrangle in some supporters that don't use Twitter or XDA.
I will need your help getting this out there. So share the facebook page where you can.
I'm also looking to see if anyone is interested in helping me Moderate the page. Please PM if you are.
Original Post:
Hi All,
I have created a Groubal (online petition) to get a response from Motorola on it's bootloader policy.
>>This petition started for the Atrix, but I made sure that it was for Motorola's overall Bootloader Policy. I have reached 200 signatures in 2 weeks, but now believe it's time to expand this out of the Atrix space and into the larger Motorola Dev community.
Ok guys, we now have nearly 800 signatures, nearly 500 in one night alone.
Keep up the great work everyone, this wouldn't be going anywhere without your support.
Sent from my Atrix (in Australia)
signed
10 char
Thank you everyone for your support.
Updated First Post!
I put it on facebook and i signed it. I really want this phone and bootloaders makes it a no deal.
Used my fascinating voodoo powers
Just updated Original Post, some very interesting developments today.
I posted/reposted everywhere i know to and asked for them to repost. Hopefully moto will get this.
Used my fascinating voodoo powers
Signed. Does anyone else feel this should be posted in the General section of every android device? We need to protect AOSP!
absens said:
Signed. Does anyone else feel this should be posted in the General section of every android device? We need to protect AOSP!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would be even better if we could get XDA to post it as an announcement across all the forums, but unfortunately I don't know any of the administrators well enough to do it.
If you want to champion that for us, that would be greatly appreciate. I'm starting to find myself spread to thin on this one.
Groubal has been attacked again!
Hello Irwin,
Yes indeed...Groubal was hacked once again. We have our technical team and our hosting enterprise working feverishly on this to remedy the problem.
Clearly your petition and all your supporters have touched off serious nerves; and your message has created amazing awareness around the world now.
We will fix the problem and move forward. Please take the time to let everyone know on all the forums what has happened to Groubal.
Thanks in advance,
Groubal Customer Care
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will update the post when they are back to normal operations.
I posted this on a few other forums around xda. I also posted this on fascinates forum to since thats where i hang out. I got a bunch of negative feedback at first. Then come to find out the new samsung phones are going to have it too.
Used my fascinating voodoo powers
Updated OP
Just sent this tip to Engadget.com
Please shed some light on the petition by the Android user community requesting that Motorola to unlock the bootloaders on their Droid phones. Smartphones are not just phones that can browse the web, they are mobile computing devices that can make phone calls.
We pay a large sum of money to own these mobile computing devices but we are not able to modify the operating system like any other personal computer that each of us own.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
Thank you,
CaliTilt said:
Just sent this tip to Engadget.com
Please shed some light on the petition by the Android user community requesting that Motorola to unlock the bootloaders on their Droid phones. Smartphones are not just phones that can browse the web, they are mobile computing devices that can make phone calls.
We pay a large sum of money to own these mobile computing devices but we are not able to modify the operating system like any other personal computer that each of us own.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
Thank you,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you. Hopefully they will shed their spot lights on it.
Used my fascinating voodoo powers
Thanks everyone for the support, Motorola has noticed us.
Updated OP.
I had not realized that you posted on the dx forum. I found a list where you have posted. I've been posting to milestone 2, fascinate, and facebook. I will keep these 3 up to date with the info you pass out.
Updated OP.
New Facebook Page!
SIGNED!!!!!
We need to get as many ppl to sign this as we can.
signed!!
moto and other manufactures need to stop this!! if we buy a device...we have the right to do what we want with it...its our money!!!
Signed. I'm rocking a Thunderbolt right now, but I still play with my Droid X from time to time.
HTC are reviewing the locked bootloader policy.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/htc/update-on-bootloaders/10150305151453084
and ...
http://wakeuphtc.blogspot.com/
If this works, it'll be the best rhing htc did in a long time.
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using XDA App
This is a post to shut up the masses stay loud my friends, stay loud until they clearly state that they will unlock those bootloaders
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Jbcarrera said:
This is a post to shut up the masses stay loud my friends, stay loud until they clearly state that they will unlock those bootloaders
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
I don't thinks so. This statment even more gives power to our voices. Look at Google and see a lot of big tech forums like "androidpolice" refer to.
Well they had better, i dont want to be moving to samsung, HOWEVER, push comes to shove and no root for my currently s-on incredible s? it will be done :/
I think it is time to let companies know the power of the pro-user. I am constantly recommending people against buying an HTC. They trust me for all their review. On every forum, we must absolutely not recommend anyone an HTC. All of it can be done without lying.
Example:
n00b question: "hey, should I buy the HTC sensation?"
Reply: "No. The bootloader is locked. You'll only be able to run what HTC wants you to run. You either buy a Samsung, or simply get an iPhone."
Yes, the opinion is slightly biased, and hides some information (like the user might never need root). However, as someone who has the privilege of recommending devices to others - How much I disclose, and how neutral I should be, is not covered by the any covenant. So.. screw you HTC. Everyday, I'll try and persuade, at least, one person to not buy an HTC - till you unlock!
eternalhate said:
I think it is time to let companies know the power of the pro-user. I am constantly recommending people against buying an HTC. They trust me for all their review. On every forum, we must absolutely not recommend anyone an HTC. All of it can be done without lying.
Example:
n00b question: "hey, should I buy the HTC sensation?"
Reply: "No. The bootloader is locked. You'll only be able to run what HTC wants you to run. You either buy a Samsung, or simply get an iPhone."
Yes, the opinion is slightly biased, and hides some information (like the user might never need root). However, as someone who has the privilege of recommending devices to others - How much I disclose, and how neutral I should be, is not covered by the any covenant. So.. screw you HTC. Everyday, I'll try and persuade, at least, one person to not buy an HTC - till you unlock!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I feel the same way
HTC- YOU LOCK WE WALK!!!!
eternalhate said:
I think it is time to let companies know the power of the pro-user. I am constantly recommending people against buying an HTC. They trust me for all their review. On every forum, we must absolutely not recommend anyone an HTC. All of it can be done without lying.
Example:
n00b question: "hey, should I buy the HTC sensation?"
Reply: "No. The bootloader is locked. You'll only be able to run what HTC wants you to run. You either buy a Samsung, or simply get an iPhone."
Yes, the opinion is slightly biased, and hides some information (like the user might never need root). However, as someone who has the privilege of recommending devices to others - How much I disclose, and how neutral I should be, is not covered by the any covenant. So.. screw you HTC. Everyday, I'll try and persuade, at least, one person to not buy an HTC - till you unlock!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Count of people I got to buy non HTC phones = 12 and counting
I love sense. The only reason I say no is the boot loader. Free our phones. Now!
cooljais said:
If this works, it'll be the best rhing htc did in a long time.
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using XDA App
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Actually, it'll just be undoing the worst thing they've done in a long time.
I wrote a two page letter to HTC today one part with personal data and why the S-ON device is not good for me and the other part from the example letter that is posted to the first post blog.
I send it via e-mail directly to some addresses and also via the HTC support..
and here's the reply..
Thank you for contacting us,
We cannot comment on whether or not HTC has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. Rooting the phone may open the phone up to virus attacks and other unsecure activities, as well as introduce unintended functionality, and as such is very difficult for us to support.
You are a valued HTC customer, thank you so much for your feedback, we will be communicating them to the department in charge, please note that we are glad to offer assistance whenever needed, if you have any further inquiries kindly don't hesitate to contact us.
Click to expand...
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How typical..
It goes without saying that there are benefits to making it difficult to root your phone. A prime example is that once you root your phone. All of your account passwords are unencrypted.
That said, perhaps if the phones were easier to root people would put resources into making sure they're re-encrypted with a good ROM.
But ultimately every user deserves freedom of choice and if rooting my phone is the best/simplest/easiest way for me to uninstall bloatware/configure it as per I need it, then its clearly the best option. Freedom is the key here. Every single user should have a choice.