There has been some discussion and rumor about a ghost thread and someone keeping a rom from the public, I've looked into the situation and by this message would like to respond publicly about it. I hope this will clear up any rumors going around and will return this forum to what it should be, a place to discuss and develop.
The "ghost thread":
The thread with subject "How to cook in a OEM Application (package) with uninstall functions?" has been closed by the moderator Duttythroy by request of the original poster. This can be seen in google cache as well as on this screenshot from our pda archive. It has been permanently removed from the forum and can not be restored. This happens often when a thread is closed and doesn't seem to be of much importance to prevent clutter in the forum. To prevent discussions like these in the future I've removed the ability to permanently remove threads from now on.
I have no reason to believe this thread was removed on purpose with malicious intent.
Accusations of keeping a rom from the public:
There have been accusations that a certain member is keeping a source rom from the public by paying people not to distribute it. The person who allegedly got paid to not share this rom does not wish to tell me who did this nor wishes to provide proof for this. As the system shows this user has removed all messages in his PM box there is no way for me to gain access to this information if it ever was in his PM box to begin with. I thus have no reason to believe that a rom is being kept from the public with malicious intent.
About the sharing principle in general:
A lot of rom chefs have complained that keeping a rom from other chefs no matter what the reason is a breach of the sharing principle of this forum and should be punished.
Though we believe that by sharing the community will benefit most it is not a rule, I can not nor do I wish to force people to share. Sometimes there are simply more important issues with a rom that might cause someone not to want to share, think of sources that need protecting or legal issues. I don't think our sharing principle should be enforced with the risk of sources losing their jobs or people getting sued because they shared, this most certainly won't be good for the future of xda-developers.
Best regards,
Flar
p.s. I will leave this thread open for discussion for a while, but do request that you do not post personal attacks here and try to keep the discussion civil.
Flar said:
There has been some discussion and rumor about a ghost thread and someone keeping a rom from the public, I've looked into the situation and by this message would like to respond publicly about it. I hope this will clear up any rumors going around and will return this forum to what it should be, a place to discuss and develop.
The "ghost thread":
The thread with subject "How to cook in a OEM Application (package) with uninstall functions?" has been closed by the moderator Duttythroy by request of the original poster. This can be seen in google cache as well as on this screenshot from our pda archive. It has been permanently removed from the forum and can not be restored. This happens often when a thread is closed and doesn't seem to be of much importance to prevent clutter in the forum. To prevent discussions like these in the future I've removed the ability to permanently remove threads from now on.
I have no reason to believe this thread was removed on purpose with malicious intent.
Accusations of keeping a rom from the public:
There have been accusations that a certain member is keeping a source rom from the public by paying people not to distribute it. The person who allegedly got paid to not share this rom does not wish to tell me who did this nor wishes to provide proof for this. As the system shows this user has removed all messages in his PM box there is no way for me to gain access to this information if it ever was in his PM box to begin with. I thus have no reason to believe that a rom is being kept from the public with malicious intent.
About the sharing principle in general:
A lot of rom chefs have complained that keeping a rom from other chefs no matter what the reason is a breach of the sharing principle of this forum and should be punished.
Though we believe that by sharing the community will benefit most it is not a rule, I can not nor do I wish to force people to share. Sometimes there are simply more important issues with a rom that might cause someone not to want to share, think of sources that need protecting or legal issues. I don't think our sharing principle should be enforced with the risk of sources losing their jobs or people getting sued because they shared, this most certainly won't be good for the future of xda-developers.
Best regards,
Flar
p.s. I will leave this thread open for discussion for a while, but do request that you do not post personal attacks here and try to keep the discussion civil.
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I respect your choice. Good work to all the chefs, mods and admin.
I respect your choice!
Good work to everybody!
You do what you have to do.
Respect!
Thanks Flar for clearing things up.
I can only hope this has now been resolved and harmony returns to xda developers.
I think Flar is right, but for another reason that she didn't mention, I believe that sharing is good for the community, but sharing means to be willing to share. If you force someone to share something, it's more like stealing.
Can we all be friends again now?
Group hug??
The real question now is this:
Is everything going to return to normal in the forum now?
Or did we lost some chefs/mods?
I guess time will tell...
Since there isn't much that can be done and the Admin did whatever he could and posted the investigation results publicly, we should respect his decision and accept the facts on the face value and not on assumptions. I hope things will getback to normal and the chefs would reopen their ROMs for the public, who love and adore their work.
XDA is a wonderful place for HTC device owners due to the extremely talanted developers and chefs, who are anytime better than the ones wotking at Microsoft and HTC.
So I humbly request all the chefs to re-open their ROMs to the loving and dedicated fans and get back the XDA spirit.
Thank you.
Hello
Thanks for the clear answer and hope that's poeple are going down a bit..
Still unclear if the cookers can share the new rom or not... as the Admin didn't find any proof
Anyway hope that it was just a little storm
Long life to XDA
gigaboss said:
I think Flar is right, but for another reason that she didn't mention, I believe that sharing is good for the community, but sharing means to be willing to share. If you force someone to share something, it's more like stealing.
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Exactly.
Personally If I give my word to someone promising not to do something, I will do that, and I expect that also others respect this, and behave coherently with my position.
Clearly as steted in the first post above, when such an extent is reached (like people getting sued or fired) this becomes exponentially more important.
I would like to say that I just joined this community before the thing blew, and as far as I am concerned it seems that things are cooling down, so thanks to the Admins and Moderators for your efforts. (We are civil people, or at least we should behave like it)
Also a thank to all the Chef's, because you can do what I cannot, I appreciate your work, please do not get discouraged and keep it up with the excellent service you provide to the masses here on XDA.
Ciao from Italy.
I am glad there has been progress on the matter.
What happened was sooooooooooo unnecessary and i still believe could have been dealt with better.
I have posted a PM to Flar about how i feel.
XDA is more important than individuals, this must not happen again.
Phew, feel better now
Good speech, but I think everything is the same!
The world is made of corruption, and where it is you can not do anything!
Chef small is nothing, but Big Chef power can not be discussed.
Solution: Leave XDA or lives to it so.
I continue make my roms with love.. Not with money!!!
MaryOne is here to make people happy!!!
Life is beautiful!
Can we have an official answer from dutty about accusations?
lucarp78 said:
Can we have an official answer from dutty about accusations?
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It's up to dutty to decide if he wants to discuss this but i think he should do that when he's ready. I've spoken to him yesterday and he's currently very busy with his personal life so it might take some time.
Best regards,
Flar
lucarp78 said:
Can we have an official answer from dutty about accusations?
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I think he already made his official answer towards rhis matter.
Hopefully we can all resume normal communication now. The rules have been changed so that it won't be possible for mods to permanently erase threads which offers some official traceability if issues arise.
jouh said:
I think he already made his official answer towards rhis matter.
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In all closed threads Dutty have many "lawyers", I think not need. He will surely respond.
jouh said:
I think he already made his official answer towards rhis matter.
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Let him answer and not his lawyers.
At least... with your hand to put in... and with your comment and your decision, this makes sense and let all of users to understand this matter.
Now.. i'm really happy and wish all of your cookers to return to our famous website.
Thanks,
KCJ
The TownHall Meeting has been officially started. Here are the rules of engagement:
Ok, enough joking for now. Here are the true rules of engagement:
1. Posts that are flaming or flame bait are to be deleted, no questions asked.
2. Language to be edited on sight....
3. No banning, No infractions.
4. Moderators will act only as a mediator, so we will not be taking sides with anyone.
Welcome everyone
@everyone,
Please respect the rules above and I can guarantee you that by the end of the day, we will have a much happier and friendlier atmosphere in this place.
Summary of action items
This was a good meeting in General and it has covered all of the things that I had in my agenda. A few action items on our (mods) end:
1. New threads for ROM updates: Rom threads become quasi chaotic after page 100 or so. Since Chefs update most of their work often, I would suggest that chefs open a new thread for each version with a date and version number to distinguish it from the previous one (maybe even a name)
ie [ROM] 12/15/10 - Inchybrid v 1.2 - all is good now
2. Rom Review Thread: In order to minimize the clutter of the usual "what rom is best" questions, we will start a ROM thread where chefs can post a link to their roms on the first few posts and users will be able to leave reviews (not necessarily feedback), but reviews. So, when someone comes asking for the best rom, that person can be directed there.
3. Wiki update and guides (sticky): These need to be heavily updated, but will certainly be a useful tool to help people with questions.
4. Location / shape of the Report button: I will talk to the other admins and see what can be done about this one.
5. Preventing non-devs from making new threads in Dev: We are currently discussing a system for this. We will keep you posted if and when we reach a conclusion.
6. Off Topic Lounge: There will be a thread in General for you guys to blow off steam. Nothing fancy, but you can post there without having to open a new thread in OT general
Now, onto the action items results and requests from us (mods)
1. Further flaming for questions will not be tolerated. I gathered from this meeting that everyone agrees on a stance that people need not be flamed for asking anything. If there are questions in the wrong areas or simply don't feel like answering, refrain from posting and report it to us. We will move it to Q&A or General depending on the question. Building on this point, if anyone is caught flaming someone who posted in the correct section, that person will be given a vacation.
2. Rule 12 (aka Kanging): Rom chefs (no matter if they are themers or zip wizards), if they are using someone else's efforts as a base for their rom, they are to abide by Rule 12 by asking permission and posting the due credit in the opening post. Kanging will not be tolerated.
3. Donations: This was barely brushed but I feel that we reached an understanding rather quickly on this one. Chefs shall not ask for Donations to release early work.
4. Posting any kind of flaming will not be tolerated. If you feel that a post shouldn't be there, please let us know and we will take care of that.
I think this pretty much summed everything up. If I missed something, please let me know. I expect everyone to adhere to codes of conduct in this site. Thanks to all for attending.
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
lralexl said:
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
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Thanks for starting things off...
So, what you are saying is that a lot of the flaming occurs due to skinners being deemed as kangers. Am I getting this right?
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
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Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
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In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev. It looks like the biggest problem is either a misunderstanding about this rule or lack of knowledge about its existence by both accusing party and "guilty/innocent" party. As a general rule of thumb, if you are making a rom that is based on someone else's work:
* Ask for permission
* Give credit where its due
Simple as that.
Interesting point...
From my experience on hero, people tend to post a theme pack for a ROM. For example, a few regular users port the same few themes into each new ROM I make, and release an add-on patch for it.
They don't go and release it as a separate ROM, but if they did, I have no doubt they would ask me about it first, and I would say sure, but with the caveat that we don't want it to happen too often... What would people think if we had one ROM that is tweaked theme-wise a few times and re-posted as separate ROMs?
There's no "right" answer, but provided people ask the original developers, and give credit per rule 12, then there is no issue with the rules there, so users would be allowed to.
Whether or not it is a "ROM" is up to individual perspectives then.
egzthunder1 said:
Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev.
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I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
lralexl said:
I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
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Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
One (implied) rule of thumb is that if the "dev" in question cannot support their release, you are more than likely dealing with a themer or a "zip wizard" and as such, you are probably better off trying to find the source of the rom and apply the theme/fix as a separate add-on.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
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It may be a bit of added work, but the Rom review thread is not a bad idea. Just keep it clean from clutter and you have a very good tool to prevent new threads of "What is the best rom?" kind from erupting... I like that!
When it comes from flaming, some people will just put out flame bait for the hell of it. What I need, or at least I would like to see, is for everyone to stick to code of conduct and either ignore it, report it, or else, just not add to the fire.
First, we do recognize that we have a problem. We know this because 1) developers are leaving and forming their own sites because they don't like some of the things going on here. And 2) newer people are afraid to post here. Instead, they go to other forums and ask questions and state that they are afraid to post here. Both of these are big problems for the health of the site.
So, we look at the root causes. Most of them stem from 1) a lack of courtesy or 2) a lack of proper conduct. But I think the problems start with:
1. The Samsung Vibrant's stock software is not up to par due to some poor performing components, such as the GPS.
2. Samsung and T-Mobile have failed to communicate with their community.
3. Many people have come to sites like XDA for help.
What this means is that we have a lot of people in the Development forum who really aren't developers. But, they are here because they want help making their Vibrants perform better. That's not an excuse. I'm just saying that we probably have a lot of people in the Developer section who probably should be in QA or General section.
I think we would do well to:
1. Create a NooB forum, or emphasize the General forum as the place to be.
2. Post all new released ROMs in its own forum (not General, but "ROMS" or "Releases") That way people can go there for ROMS and for SUPPORT.
3. I would hope that this would enable the development forum to get back to being one were developers (or people who are interested in developing) could hang out.
Lastly, there are just some people who are like to cause trouble or are overly sensitive. I'm not sure what to do with them. But if they can't play nice, probably the first thing is to "parent" them and see if they can play nice. If that doesn't work, then it is time for a "timeout", or a temporary or permanent ban.
Lastly, while I appreciate the TownHall meeting, let's not lose site of the good things happening here. I would say that the majority of people are following the rules and making meaningful contributions. But if just 10% of the people do bad things, it colors the entire community.
The Vibrant subforums have seemed to be more Wild West than anything. I feel there should be a better mod presence. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly how difficult it is to do all the moderating, especially given how much of it is behind the scenes, but I feel that there is still some regulation lacking. We need to see more people get warned within threads that get out of hand, and frankly, some banning might get the message across that XDA is going to stop taking this crap from people. This board has gotten ridiculous w/ the flaming and incessant bs. Moderation can only go so much, since it's really up to the posting base to change their ways and be more respectful towards one another in order to truly make a long-term difference, but in the short-term we need some better, more aggresive moderation since changing peoples' posting habits will not be a quick thing to happen.
Proud to be a noob
I think there does seem to be a general consensus around us "noobs" about our failure to use the "search" function in a thread that has over 600 + pages of posts. God knows I would love to just flash a ROM and read basic information or FAQ's from the developer (the one individual who SHOULD know more about their own product than anyone) if I have questions, but when you have over 200 posts about how much others love/hate the ROM/developer or personal rants or recommendations/requests for the ROM they have had no part in developing, it does make it difficult to filter out the answer to the force close issue I am experiencing (for example). Then the flame wars begin! How DARE I ask that question since it was answered previously 42 pages back with a link to another developers thread, posted on page 418 of their 700 page manifesto...you get the hint. Finding basic answers to questions is challenging at best, and most newcomers end up getting ridiculed to the point of not wanting to have any further part, or end up flaming right back. Newsflash : just because you have flashed every possible combination of ROM/kernel/modem, does in no way make you an expert. Leave that to the people that make the ROM. Replies should be streamlined to relevant information allowed only, or force a PM if you want to discuss something irrelevant or bash a newcomer if it makes you feel better.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
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I was think about that the other day...that's a good idea and that way the develoment forum will be kept clean.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
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Are you able to comment on the personal issues or are you simply surmising?
Thanks
WB
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
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To expand on this point, I've noticed people flaming over pretty much any definition. Someone posts that they're disappointed by GPS performance or screen burn in, and they get an argument over what constitutes a "feature" of the phone and told that their concern is not important. People forget that what might not be important to them may be a dealbreaker for someone else.
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
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Since that's where I spend most of my time I can say for certain that this is true. I think there's a lot of younger kids in the vibrant forum who like picking fights and just generally being less than friendly. It seems like the answer to most questions asked is go search for it yourself. The information is readily available most of the time if theyd just look, but there's no reason to be rude about it.
With that said, I think since the thanks button has been added its made for a better atmosphere--so far. Definitely a welcome addition that will hopefully keep things civil.
Hey guys. I had nowhere else to ask this question, and this is kind of relevant to the subject matter of the website, so I figured I'd ask it here.
Is there a forum dedicated to programming with a huge user base and an active beginners section? Some perhaps very well known website that most everybody uses?
Thanks for the help.
Here is a good place to start:
Programming Basics
LoopDoGG79 said:
Here is a good place to start:
Programming Basics
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How is that even vaguely helpful? He's asking for something specific, and it's quite a sensible request.
@Bodoma there is a programming forum on here, but it's quite new so not particularly busy. Given time I'm sure it will build up, but there's already lots of people you can chat about programming with and get advice from.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2188
That forum is specific for app development for the platforms we cover on xda.
As for specific coding issues, get familiar with StackOverflow.com. It's a *very* useful resource that most developers are aware of, even if just to leech from it (nothing wrong with reading and learning )
Archer said:
How is that even vaguely helpful? He's asking for something specific, and it's quite a sensible request.
@Bodoma there is a programming forum on here, but it's quite new so not particularly busy. Given time I'm sure it will build up, but there's already lots of people you can chat about programming with and get advice from.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2188
That forum is specific for app development for the platforms we cover on xda.
As for specific coding issues, get familiar with StackOverflow.com. It's a *very* useful resource that most developers are aware of, even if just to leech from it (nothing wrong with reading and learning )
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Ooh, I had no idea that forum existed on here. Thanks for the help, Archer. As far as a preliminary glance at what StackOverflow is, it seems like a great platform that I can use to ask a ton of questions and see what kind of answers I get.
I did Google, by the way, but the results that were returning didn't have communities as big as I would like, since popularity is the only way I can tell whether or not the website is reliable, as I do not know enough about the subject matter to use another method of filtration.
Thanks again, I really appreciate it.
Hello, I'm saucey and would first like to thank everyone involved with the XDA community. This includes but is not limited to the management teams who make the tough decisions, the Devs who work to improve the site's user friendly format, to those who provide responses to the many questions and lend guidance to individuals, who at times, may be worn down and stressed out over the subject matter for which they seek your time and knowledge. Lastly, I would like to thank the inquiring minds who have turned to the XDA community because they believed that this forum was and is their best option for the remedy that they seek. I believe it's fair to say, without those who raise the question we would be hard pressed to find cause to provide an answer. Thanks again to all of you for your time and consideration, please be well and stay safe.
Saucey_RoadRash said:
Hello, I'm saucey and would first like to thank everyone involved with the XDA community. This includes but is not limited to the management teams who make the tough decisions, the Devs who work to improve the site's user friendly format, to those who provide responses to the many questions and lend guidance to individuals, who at times, may be worn down and stressed out over the subject matter for which they seek your time and knowledge. Lastly, I would like to thank the inquiring minds who have turned to the XDA community because they believed that this forum was and is their best option for the remedy that they seek. I believe it's fair to say, without those who raise the question we would be hard pressed to find cause to provide an answer. Thanks again to all of you for your time and consideration, please be well and stay safe.
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Nice intro, welcome aboard!