Database Develop

[Q] What's up with the performance of froyo on Galaxy S?

Hi Ppl,
I got the official froyo release for Galaxy S India yesterday. Good Good... But wait, is it worth it? I don't know..
Before I upgraded to froyo I had applied the lag fix on 2.1 and the quadrant score showed somewhere at 1700-1800 which is good. Quadrant score on stock showed around 800-900.
Quadrant score on 2.2 stock now shows 925-950. This really pissed me off. I ran another test which is linpack and I got 13 Mflops. I do not understand what's wrong with the froyo update. I read somewhere that 2.2 is not compatible with humming bird processor. Per my understanding 2.2 upgrade should boost the CPU to the next level and the performance should be really good than 2.1.
I was comparing dell streak with galaxy s. I know if I should or not but I just wanted to look at the scores on both. Dell says Streak has a 1 GHz processor and so do Galaxy S. But the linpack score on streak showed 30 Mflops which is way better than Galaxy S which is at 13 Mflops. I really do not understand what the problem here is.
Is there no difference b/w 2.1 and 2.2 on Galaxy S? If yes, 2.2 is a joke I would say.
I am concerned because I still found issues with the froyo update. Its still laggy. I didnt notice much difference b/w 2.1 and 2.2 really
Can anyone help me out with this please?
Thanks,
Ravi

I wouldn't worry too much about quadrant scores, but if your phone is lagging then you probably need to reapply a lag fix. Did you update via Kies? I updated mine a while ago using odin (never had much joy with Kies) and my phone seemed pretty good without a lag fix, I did do a factory reset though before installing. Mines now running spikey's oc rom and oclf and is scoring around 2300 on quadrant, but more importantly the phone is ultra responsive with zero lag

Do a factory reset and reapply a lagfix, you'll get 1600ish quadrant scores again.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

Thanks for the reply, guys. I had read somewhere that the score would be 1600-1800 on stock froyo? Is that not right? Do I still need to apply a lag fix?
And yes. I updated using Kies. I did a factory reset of the phone before and after I update froyo.
Which lag fix do u suggest? Voodoo or OCLF? I guess OCLF uses EXT2 and Voodoo uses EXT4 which is a bit faster than the former right?

who cares about the score, it is all BS
what matter most, is how smooth it runs for you, and when you switch from app to app, and have stuff multitasking in the background

AllGamer said:
who cares about the score, it is all BS
what matter most, is how smooth it runs for you, and when you switch from app to app, and have stuff multitasking in the background
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That FACT should be sticky on this forum.

ok.. I am facing a new problem now. I do not know if this is the right thread or not.
After the froyo official update I noticed I could download apps from the market except for the installation process. Some apps get stuck after a complete download and never gets installed
IS there a fix for this?

[Q] darkys rom not so fast :(

I had Phoenix rom, decided to go to darkys because it looked better to me. I flashed Darkys, and it looked good and everything, but i entered Quadrant Standard and im getting score of lees than 720, when with phoenix i got 1000 or more, the graphic says that i have less score than a Galaxy S, what went wrong, is this ok, should i not bother myself with this or what?

hernan078 said:
I had Phoenix rom, decided to go to darkys because it looked better to me. I flashed Darkys, and it looked good and everything, but i entered Quadrant Standard and im getting score of lees than 720, when with phoenix i got 1000 or more, the graphic says that i have less score than a Galaxy S, what went wrong, is this ok, should i not bother myself with this or what?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make sure you flash a good kernel.. SpeedMod K12M or Firebird2..
And check quadrant scores.. Quadrant scores don't mean anything.. DG officially hates it!

I have not tried darkeys but, I would reboot try again. No 2.2.1 rom should be that low.
Quadrants do not really mean anything though

hernan078 said:
I had Phoenix rom, decided to go to darkys because it looked better to me. I flashed Darkys, and it looked good and everything, but i entered Quadrant Standard and im getting score of lees than 720, when with phoenix i got 1000 or more, the graphic says that i have less score than a Galaxy S, what went wrong, is this ok, should i not bother myself with this or what?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While quadrant is not a completely accurate test it can be a useful test to see how the phone performs. A score of 720 probably indicates that something did not take. It's been a while since I have been on Darky's rom but with Cezar's rom and no lagfix I get 1100 quadrant scores which is pretty normal for a 2.2.1 rom without lagfix. Enabling lagfix could bump that to 1300 to 1500 range.
I have gotten 1700 to 1900 scores with overclocking and lagfix before but here's the problem with basing everything off your test score. On 2.2.1 with no lagfix I can't tell a difference in how the phone operates compared to overclocked kernels with lagfix. I can play the same games and watch the same videos and really can't tell a difference. Darky's is a 2.2.1 rom so you should be seeing pretty much the same performance.
Are you noticing any lag? Run the test again to see if the score bumps up?

this will sound stupid, he but i found the problem, with set cpu, i dont know why, but the processor was clocked at 400 mhz, FML!

hernan078 said:
this will sound stupid, he but i found the problem, with set cpu, i dont know why, but the processor was clocked at 400 mhz, FML!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hehe nice
As far as Quadrant is concerned, yes in normal cases the quadrant score is pretty meaningless but Im surprised people say that even in this thread. Its meaningless to wonder about getting 1500 instead of 1600, but with scores of 700 clearly something is wrong, and thats exactly what Quadrant *is* useful for, diagnosing performance issues!
Good to see you found the problem already

hernan078 said:
I had Phoenix rom, decided to go to darkys because it looked better to me. I flashed Darkys, and it looked good and everything, but i entered Quadrant Standard and im getting score of lees than 720, when with phoenix i got 1000 or more, the graphic says that i have less score than a Galaxy S, what went wrong, is this ok, should i not bother myself with this or what?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quadrant doesn't tell the whole story, but I'm running darkys 7.8 and I've got a Quadrant score of 1480+. I was a Cognition junkie until I flashed darkys - I couldn't be more pleased.

bluebullet2121 said:
Quadrant doesn't tell the whole story, but I'm running darkys 7.8 and I've got a Quadrant score of 1480+. I was a Cognition junkie until I flashed darkys - I couldn't be more pleased.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All the 2.2.1-based ROMs are pretty much equally fast.. mostly cause theyre all very close to being stock, the only performance-change is from using a recompiled kernel.
Voodoo seems to be a bit faster than speedmod. 1620 here on DocROM with advanced voodoo, no overclock.

[Q] Linpack for android..am i lacking?

Ok so i flash theses beautiful roms and now ive tried some testing and currently on my captivate i ran the "linpack for andoid" app and it states:
MFLOPS: 13.982
time: 6.0
Norm Res:5.68
Precision: Inaccurate result
ok so i looked at the top 10 section ounder my phone and their MFLOPS is between 20-50 MFLOPS...So do i need some tweaking?..I mean the phone is good , Rom is awesome...any thoughts?
Captivate 1007
Phoenix 5.2 (2.2.1 JS5)
Speedmod i897 500hz k13c
UGJK4
Lagfix enabled
(r) Tweaks enabled

I wouldn't worry about it. First, your test said inaccurate results, so try running it a few times, though you probably won't get much more out of it. Secondly, most people believe these benchmarks are a load of BS, and I would trends to agree. If the ROM feels snappier and works smoother than stock for you, there really isn't any use in the benchmark scores. I'm running Serendipity 5.11 with the same kernel as you, and I find my scores are in the low 14's- which, as is for you, seems slow compared to the online results. However, my phone supposedly blows the other results out of the water in the Quadrant Standard benchmark, regularly achieving scores over 1500, and I imagine yours would perform similarly, so no, I wouldn't worry at all.
Overall, most of the roms on here achieve faster performance along with better battery life compared to a stock cappy. I suggest trying out as many roms as possible to find the one that fits you best, as everybody has different tastes, and each rom behaves differently for everybody.
Personally, I think Serendipity is something you should try, as it looks friggen sweet as is, and even better IMO with some tweaks. I changed the battery indicator to the android dude, the font to Armani, and use launcher pro over the base rom. Altogether, my phone is super slick and snappy. Oh yeah, it also accesses HSPA networks, so downloads are way quicker than stock (pretty sure your current rom does too).
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

that's about right, repeated tests should get you 14+. it does say inacurate so i dont think you have a problem, just a process running somewhere. the hummingbird lacks a bit in this area and snapdragons excel only in this area. i know it is weird that the nexus one and droid incredible smoke this phone in linpack but it is hardly a thorough benchmark. run quadrant on CM7 when it comes out and see what the hardware is really doing without the samsung influence. despite the low mflops you will see good scores across the board.

Thanks alot for the input everyone...jus curious how gen-pop was adding up... but who cares about the numbers i suppose when my phone is soo [email protected]## cool hahha
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

Just for the record, I'm on stock Froyo, With no SpeedMod, but with voodoo lagfix and I got better benchmark, linpack and quadrant scores than I did with a custom rom and Speedmod kernel before. Add to that the stability of a native ROM and kernel, and I think you know what I am saying here...

clemmie said:
Just for the record, I'm on stock Froyo, With no SpeedMod, but with voodoo lagfix and I got better benchmark, linpack and quadrant scores than I did with a custom rom and Speedmod kernel before. Add to that the stability of a native ROM and kernel, and I think you know what I am saying here...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm. Intresting. Makes sense. Whered ya get the stock from..curious about the release tomorrow for At&t. Think i might try some configs with it.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

[Q] Best Galaxy Ace Overclock Frequancy... And something else thanks

Hey guys
I know their probably another thread out there with this in it but... Yeah. But go ahead troll me lol, im still a bit of a noob.:silly:
Anyways, i have a Galaxy Ace s5830. I have Beats with smooth sense ROM. I had it upto 883MHz Yesterday but after i turned it off then back on ROM Toolbox reverted it to 806MHZ. 883MHz seemed a lot faster even though some people get theirs close to 1GHZ
My phone afterwards rebooting had issues such as the phone becoming un-responsive when i was even doing nothing (maybe the overclock to 883MHz had some short term effect?) But the phone seemed fine after safely turning it off then back on several times. Still works perfectly i got scared when it started to become un-responsive. But it works well now i have also used pimp my ROM, and the scripts work like a charm. Especially the call quality one (it uses bravia engine or something?). But with pimp my ROM wi-fi and network tweaks it completely broke wi-fi saying wi-fi connecting... Then saying under the network name 'Error'. Dam it took so long to get the IP address then said error like i said lol
At the frequency 883MHZ the phone seemed stable and faster than ever before, i did change it in small increments
So just wondering, what is the safe and most reliable frequencies to set it at? I currently use 225Min and 806 Max. With the userspace governer.
I know the terms of ' Safe ' and overclock don't mix (sorta like water and my dads S2 :crying: ).
Im also considering buying a 2450MAH battery from ebay for about 5.99 AUD. Any suggestions on should it be okay and better? But i mainly would like to knwo about the overclcoking lol.
So yeah, basically what is a good frequency to set it at? Is 883MHZ okay? Am i going to fry it out or completely brick or damage the phone or cpu if i set it at 883MHZ? Would love to buy a new phone but i need to save im only 14
So yeah please help me and you could help others too. Please be welcomed to troll me
I plan on having this phone another 3-4 Months before i consider buying the S2 or Galaxy note when their cheap (like really cheap)...
Like i said please help, and feel welcomed to troll me when you do help :highfive:
Man i feel like a Rebel when i overclock

That battery is a fake and has been confirmed as such. If you want a higher cap. battery get a 1500mAh or 1600mAh. I don't like messing with the clocking, good luck to you.

Thanks
Narwhal73 said:
That battery is a fake and has been confirmed as such. If you want a higher cap. battery get a 1500mAh or 1600mAh. I don't like messing with the clocking, good luck to you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for informing me that the battery is a fake ... But the seller has like 96%/100% seller rate or something?
Thanks for all your help, i hited like
Sorry for my 'Noobiness'.
What battery do you reccomend? or should i consider getting a AA battery to USB power charger?

i'm pretty comfortable with 825 or 844 mhz

It's pretty good with 614 MHz lol
Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

Running smooth even on 614 Mhz.
Moderate usage.

King Android said:
Thank you for informing me that the battery is a fake ... But the seller has like 96%/100% seller rate or something?
Thanks for all your help, i hited like
Sorry for my 'Noobiness'.
What battery do you reccomend? or should i consider getting a AA battery to USB power charger?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right now I am just using the stock one. I personally wouldn't change my battery to anything other than stock, but people have reported that 1500mAh or 1600mAh work well. I wouldn't use anything that has a higher capacity than that though. Also, if it's very inexpensive it's probably not real.

Clocking actually goes on the rom. I've seen people having OC over 1gHz & still stable with the mad kernel but I gave up clocking as I didn't see much of a difference & also underclocking started giving me FCs on some heavy apps while it was all fair in the unclocked state. And again, there's no such thing as a best frequency. You find your own values. What works well for him might mess up your phone rebooting all by itself. Stock batteries are always fine & they also keep you under warranty. Anyone ever wondered why the phone manufacturers didn't implement clocking as a part of it ? Stability is the word. I've seen here, I've seen there. East or west, stock is the best ! Try keeping as close to stock as possible, just to have that extra touch of safety & stability
Sent from my GT-S5830 using xda premium

Hello all.
I was reading this thread and became interested in overclocking. In my case my device is:
Samsung Galaxy Ace GT-S5830L (labeled as GT-S5830 by CyanogenMod)
CyanogenMod-7.2.0-cooper stable (Android version 2.3.7)
Kernel 2.6.35.7-perf-CL882825 ([email protected] #21)
I was checking in CM settings -> Performance -> CPU settings that I could adjust min and max clockspeed, but in max frequency the maximum one is the same processor's speed, 800 MHz. So my kernel doesn't support overclocking.
After a search in the forums I found there are plenty of custom kernels for this legacy device. But I'm relatively new to the kernel world, so I wanted to ask you for advise. What custom kernel could I try for my device for overclocking? Or King Android, what custom kernel are you using?
It'd the first time I do the overclocking stuff, I'd like to try it to see if some higher quality mp4 videos (which are run by MX Player only in software acceleration) can run better, as well as some games and emulators.
I'm also kind of a noob as you can see. If you want to troll/scold me...
Thank you all.

ctcx said:
Hello all.
I was reading this thread and [...]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi you can try FireKernel or BlackHawk kernel. Use the search function to find them easily. Both supports Overclocking and are made for CM7. [MAKE SURE THEY SUPPORT YOUR S5830L]
At the moment I'm with Democracy ROM which is based on unofficial CM7 and I don't really feel the need of overclocking. It is all smooth with firekernel at
Min 245
Max 806
Governor smartassv2
Sent from my... oh wait, who cares?

I did my search.
Maybe I forgot to mention I haven't installed a custom kernel before... Does the kernel come as a file itself, or along a CM7 custom rom? And if it comes as a file itself, how can I install it? I already mentioned what CM7 I have installed. It's the "official" stable one.
Would OCing help to improve videos and games performance? i.e, faster, no lag...

You can set it to whatever your phone can handle. Mine can't go past 844Mhz otherwise apps start force closing and such. If your phone is completely stable at 883Mhz then you're good.
As for the battery, no. It's a fake. Buy a 1500mAh like I did. Works like a charm and it brought 3. Lasts a little longer and it's really amazing. Had it for a while now. Still have one in the pack, only been using 2 when I don't get to charge my phone. Really handy.
---------- Post added at 03:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 AM ----------
ctcx said:
I did my search.
Maybe I forgot to mention I haven't installed a custom kernel before... Does the kernel come as a file itself, or along a CM7 custom rom? And if it comes as a file itself, how can I install it? I already mentioned what CM7 I have installed. It's the "official" stable one.
Would OCing help to improve videos and games performance? i.e, faster, no lag...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OCing helps the phone over all. But remember, without much free ram, OC won't really change much. You need a balance of ram and CPU. Like me, I use swap and OC to 844Mhz. Even if it's a low OC, it's still better than nothing.

1. @SuperAce609: I have 104 Mb free RAM out of 278 Mb total RAM. Mine is Galaxy Ace S5830L with CM 7.2. Would OC work for me? Up to what frequency?
And how can you have 600 Mb of RAM? Is your device really an Ace?
2. There's still a doubt I haven't been able to find out myself: does the kernel come as a file itself, or along a CM7 custom rom? And if it comes as a file itself, how can I install it? I was suggested FireKernel or BlackHawk ones...

Any help?

ctcx said:
1. @SuperAce609: I have 104 Mb free RAM out of 278 Mb total RAM. Mine is Galaxy Ace S5830L...
And how can you have 600 Mb of RAM...
2. There's still a doubt I haven't been able to find out myself: does the kernel come as a file itself, or along a CM7 custom rom? And if it comes as a file itself, how can I install it? I was suggested FireKernel or BlackHawk ones...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1.- Every Ace is diferent..some Ace's can go up to 960 Mhz while other just 844 Mhz, the thing is: try it yourself overclocking in small jumps. Swap is a small amount of memory of your SD card, that Android use it like if where RAM, but decreases SD card life...
2.- Some Kernel came Built in on Some particullary ROM's but generally cames on a CWM Flashable zip; FireKernel & BlackHawk are specially for CM7; In my opinion FireKernel is the best... And there are others like Battery Extender Kernel or NimsKernel but these Kernel are only for Stock ROM's...
I hope you find useful my info...

Thank you, Blake2893.
Then there's just 2 doubts left, if you don't mind.
There's a fair number of custom CM7.2 roms with FireKernel in the developer forum. Is there one you or someone else could say is the best in terms of stability and least number of bugs? Or is that something I should test myself in the S5830L?
The Ace S5830/S5830L has 278 Mb total RAM by default. If I understand well, you're implying I could modify SWAP partition in order to increase RAM and, probably if lucky, with this make OC work better. How can I do that? Do I also need a custom kernel/rom for that?

The best stable Roms so far are the stock GingerBread based ones... but if you aks me about CM7 there a few like Apocalypse rom(ICS styled ROM) with the FireKernel that suports swap I think...
and for Swap you only need a Kernel with Swap enabled and a SWAP Partition on your Sd card...

lets see im fine and stable with 979 mhz without reboot for 9 hours
overclock is depend on your hardware

best over clock freq.
King Android said:
Hey guys
I know their probably another thread out there with this in it but... Yeah. But go ahead troll me lol, im still a bit of a noob.:silly:
Anyways, i have a Galaxy Ace s5830. I have Beats with smooth sense ROM. I had it upto 883MHz Yesterday but after i turned it off then back on ROM Toolbox reverted it to 806MHZ. 883MHz seemed a lot faster even though some people get theirs close to 1GHZ
My phone afterwards rebooting had issues such as the phone becoming un-responsive when i was even doing nothing (maybe the overclock to 883MHz had some short term effect?) But the phone seemed fine after safely turning it off then back on several times. Still works perfectly i got scared when it started to become un-responsive. But it works well now i have also used pimp my ROM, and the scripts work like a charm. Especially the call quality one (it uses bravia engine or something?). But with pimp my ROM wi-fi and network tweaks it completely broke wi-fi saying wi-fi connecting... Then saying under the network name 'Error'. Dam it took so long to get the IP address then said error like i said lol
At the frequency 883MHZ the phone seemed stable and faster than ever before, i did change it in small increments
So just wondering, what is the safe and most reliable frequencies to set it at? I currently use 225Min and 806 Max. With the userspace governer.
I know the terms of ' Safe ' and overclock don't mix (sorta like water and my dads S2 :crying: ).
Im also considering buying a 2450MAH battery from ebay for about 5.99 AUD. Any suggestions on should it be okay and better? But i mainly would like to knwo about the overclcoking lol.
So yeah, basically what is a good frequency to set it at? Is 883MHZ okay? Am i going to fry it out or completely brick or damage the phone or cpu if i set it at 883MHZ? Would love to buy a new phone but i need to save im only 14
So yeah please help me and you could help others too. Please be welcomed to troll me
I plan on having this phone another 3-4 Months before i consider buying the S2 or Galaxy note when their cheap (like really cheap)...
Like i said please help, and feel welcomed to troll me when you do help :highfive:
Man i feel like a Rebel when i overclock
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The best and most stable overclock freq. is actually 906mhz-864mhz. It works like a charm mate! Try it.

Cyb3rVect0r said:
The best and most stable overclock freq. is actually 906mhz-864mhz. It works like a charm mate! Try it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Using CPU high frequencies is not recommended, your device's life will be reduced considerably

Epic Citadel not running

I was so happy to see that finally they released on Android....
but it doesn't run. I can start the app, I see the loading screen, then the EPIC movie. But when it should go to the '3d' rendering part (the beginning of the citadel), I get a black screen. I can hear the birds singing, but I don't see anything.
I tried uninstalling chainfire 3d, i tried uninstalling epic citadel 3 times. Nothing worked.
I rebooted, and tried all the 'normal' things. I am on stock 4.0.3 with root permission. Not knowing why it doesn't start bothers me much more than not starting it up.

Wrong forum - should be in Q&A.
Until now it's only a tech demo. Search all Forums, there are already a few threads related to the demo - maybe you'll find something helpful.
I just download it and will try the demo on my device. Will post here about the results.

Almost the same problem:
Anyone tried Epic Citadel (https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...pdGFkZWwiXQ..)?
I'm having a problem with stock 4.0.4. The benchmark starts and eventually - either right in the beginning or somewhere during the test the app kicks me on the HOME screen.
Has anyone tried the test? I assume that the problem is in the RAM as the program force close the launcher is completely reloaded.

Works on AOSPA, JB 4.2.1.

Works on stock GB LC1. Install, start, tap, run.
Phantastic Graphics, wow, just running the benchmark mode.
Results: 28.3 FPS (second run 28.8)
Resolution: 1280x800
Performance Level: High Quality
Update: and it's getting hot (at least very warm).

working for me on cm10.1 but very low fps the maximum fps reached is 26..
Ps: these bechmarks are on a underclocked voltage and cpu.. when i clocked the cpu to 1400 mhz at default voltage i got average fps of 34.1 at high quality
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

abhinav quietly brilliant said:
working for me on cm10.1 but very low fps the maximum fps reached is 26..
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please make the benchmark. Here we can see the difference between Samsung JB (with butter) and CM (without, I remember entropy's remarks about the limits and Samsung's policy).

ThaiDai said:
Please make the benchmark. Here we can see the difference between Samsung JB (with butter) and CM (without, I remember entropy's remarks about the limits and Samsung's policy).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cant try on JB, i'm still on ICS but here's what i get:
Working on Stock 4.0.4 LRI + Hydracode v7 (standard kernel).
In High Quality (1280 x 800 ) : Average FPS 28.7
In High Performance (1280 x 800 ) : Average FPS 32.5

R: Epic Citadel not running
ThaiDai said:
Please make the benchmark. Here we can see the difference between Samsung JB (with butter) and CM (without, I remember entropy's remarks about the limits and Samsung's policy).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi ThaiDai, could you explain me more what you're just said? I'm interested. Is there a topic to read about that?
Btw I got 29.3 at first run, on chipwizz tablet rom2 with philz kernel
(high quality)
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium

R: Epic Citadel not running
On stock ics 4.0.3 brand 3 run at 32 fps in max resolution and performance.
Stunning graphics but maybe isn't good optimized for exynos processor.
Inviato dal mio GT-N7000 con Tapatalk 2

ThaiDai said:
Works on stock GB LC1.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you still on GB? I think that I will go back too. Everything was worked very well on GB.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

zviki said:
Are you still on GB? I think that I will go back too. Everything was worked very well on GB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Two reasons:
- All apps I need are running without problem, GB is stable, only miss the new launchers a bit.
- I switch to the XXLSA leak for OTA update tests and restoring my GB backup with closed eyes now.
And with this demo here: It's fast, faster than every CM, AOSP, AOKP Rom, comparable to ICS
Only waiting for the next JB release. I will switch then if no new disappointment happens.