Now that Android O developer preview has dropped. I feel like the devs should drop working on 7.1.2 and just go straight to Android O when they create an AOSP branch on it. Any devs planning on doing that?
That will almost be impossible as with 7.1.2 Android O will be 64 bit. Porting back to our 32 bit device will be next to impossible
zelendel said:
That will almost be impossible as with 7.1.2 Android O will be 64 bit. Porting back to our 32 bit device will be next to impossible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, so what's next, after 7.1.1 in AOSP for our Shamu? Nothing?
gothy.gothy said:
Ok, so what's next, after 7.1.1 in AOSP for our Shamu? Nothing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android O is only in Dev preview stage. The code is bound to change and the full code is not there for us to compile. So if anyone actually are going to try then they are going to build a messy hacked build and have to start all over again when next preview comes. Best is to wait until Android O launched at fall when the final code gets pushed to aosp and that's the right time for developers to work on Android O for our Shamus. In short, now is not the right time.
gothy.gothy said:
Ok, so what's next, after 7.1.1 in AOSP for our Shamu? Nothing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No one is sure. It very well maybe the last AOSP we see. It will still be worked on i am sure but I doubt we will see anything past it for the shamu. This is why many devs have moved to other devices like the 6p or the 3t.
Arju said:
Android O is only in Dev preview stage. The code is bound to change and the full code is not there for us to compile. So if anyone actually are going to try then they are going to build a messy hacked build and have to start all over again when next preview comes. Best is to wait until Android O launched at fall when the final code gets pushed to aosp and that's the right time for developers to work on Android O for our Shamus. In short, now is not the right time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, not about the time I asked, but the possibility to have Android O, doesn't matter when.
I asked what will be after 7.1.1.
---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------
zelendel said:
No one is sure. It very well maybe the last AOSP we see. It will still be worked on i am sure but I doubt we will see anything past it for the shamu. This is why many devs have moved to other devices like the 6p or the 3t.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it is a pity, because it's a very good device!
@gothy.gothy We will probably see Android O through the unofficial route and I'm sure the Nexus 6 will live to see another year, but further than that it's hard to predict. Zelendel is right that it will only get harder and harder by time and when apps only starts supporting 64bit and looses support for 32bit then we're out of the game. We might get a sloppy hack of a build but loose app support in future major updates after Android O. So the best would be to move to a device that runs 64bit.
rester555 said:
Now that Android O developer preview has dropped. I feel like the devs should drop working on 7.1.2 and just go straight to Android O when they create an AOSP branch on it. Any devs planning on doing that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No developers are "working" on 7.1.2 (except maybe a few brave kernel developers), because the source isn't pushed to AOSP until the final release.
zelendel said:
That will almost be impossible as with 7.1.2 Android O will be 64 bit. Porting back to our 32 bit device will be next to impossible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't mean to start a flame war, but this just isn't right. There has been no effort to "remove" 32-bit support. In fact, the Nexus Player is still a 32-bit device (albeit x86) which is supported by O, it may be 64-bit hardware, but due to proprietary firmware, they decided to have the 2nd-stage bootloader, and kernel/user-space boot in 32-bit mode. It has the O preview out now. Plus the 32-bit toolchains still get active support, and even 64-bit devices (i.e. angler/marlin) run some amount of arm(32) code in the form of their proprietary firmware/libraries, so we'll always need the ability to run 32-bit code on Android, and therefore, not stripping 32-bit compatibility from Android.
Also, there haven't been any specific moves by Google in terms of AOSP source away from 32-bit support.
gothy.gothy said:
Ok, so what's next, after 7.1.1 in AOSP for our Shamu? Nothing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd bet just about any amount of money the Nexus 6 will see O once source drops.
zelendel said:
No one is sure. It very well maybe the last AOSP we see. It will still be worked on i am sure but I doubt we will see anything past it for the shamu. This is why many devs have moved to other devices like the 6p or the 3t.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would O be the last AOSP we see? Android is mostly licensed under GPLv3, so they have to release source (that compiles) for the large majority of android. If you're refereeing to the fushcia OS they are creating, according to git logs, it is to be used on intergrated system's, as the kernel they wrote is very minimal.
My apologies gentlemen, I thought that AOSP was pushed on each developer preview. I didn't realize that it doesn't hit the AOSP Branch until the final build.
rester555 said:
My apologies gentlemen, I thought that AOSP was pushed on each developer preview. I didn't realize that it doesn't hit the AOSP Branch until the final build.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hence why you look silly putting up this thread...
npjohnson said:
No developers are "working" on 7.1.2 (except maybe a few brave kernel developers), because the source isn't pushed to AOSP until the final release.
I don't mean to start a flame war, but this just isn't right. There has been no effort to "remove" 32-bit support. In fact, the Nexus Player is still a 32-bit device (albeit x86) which is supported by O, it may be 64-bit hardware, but due to proprietary firmware, they decided to have the 2nd-stage bootloader, and kernel/user-space boot in 32-bit mode. It has the O preview out now. Plus the 32-bit toolchains still get active support, and even 64-bit devices (i.e. angler/marlin) run some amount of arm(32) code in the form of their proprietary firmware/libraries, so we'll always need the ability to run 32-bit code on Android, and therefore, not stripping 32-bit compatibility from Android.
Also, there haven't been any specific moves by Google in terms of AOSP source away from 32-bit support.
I'd bet just about any amount of money the Nexus 6 will see O once source drops.
Why would O be the last AOSP we see? Android is mostly licensed under GPLv3, so they have to release source (that compiles) for the large majority of android. If you're refereeing to the fushcia OS they are creating, according to git logs, it is to be used on intergrated system's, as the kernel they wrote is very minimal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is where you are mistaken. Android isn't under the GPL. Only the kernel is. Android is under the apache license. Google doesn't have to push any code for Android at all. They could completely stop. Or keep doing what they started with the 6p and that is make the system files like system ui closed sourced.
You really have not been paying attention much. Just look at the last issues the nexus had with the updates. Not to mention not getting all of the stuff in the update that the 62 bit devices got.
zelendel said:
This is where you are mistaken. Android isn't under the GPL. Only the kernel is. Android is under the apache license.
You really have not been paying attention much. Just look at the last issues the nexus had with the updates. Not to mention not getting all of the stuff in the update that the 62 bit devices got.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apologies for the typo there. GPLv3 (which requires source release) ==> Apache (which does not). As you noted though, kernel sources are GPLv3.
I really have been paying attention though. I too wondered why the Nexus 6 didn't get Nougat as quickly, and why the 6P's 7.1.2 updates were delayed. If you do some static disassembly/analysis on the Nexus 6's proprietary blobs (in specific, take a look at the prebuilt qcom binaries, like qmuxd and mm-qcamera and the date they were signed), you can deduce that the reason we saw a delayed 7.1.1 (and 7.0 for that matter) on the Nexus 6 was because QCOM either had issues with the specific hardware peripherals related, or just wasn't keen on working on them. An issue that isn't strictly related to 32-bit support, because we saw the same exact issue with Angler on the initial 7.1.2 Beta release (some blobs which are pre-signed being dated barely before the build date). Plus the Nexus 6 itself was never intended to be a Nexus phone. In an interview with one of the Engineer's who worked on the Nexus 6, they stated that there initially was another manufacturer who backed out last minute, forcing them to use the Moto X Pro shell that shipped in China (the hardware is identical + an IR sensor for Moto Display), so Google hasn't ever been to keen on the Nexus 6.
And, what are you referring to that 64-bit devices got that the Nexus 6 didn't? Other than some of the gestures, I don't see it. The 6, 6P, and 5x all got Assistant (well, everyone did), with 7.1.1, they all got gesture support (the 6 is missing one, I think double-tap to wake? And that's because it never worked reliably on the 6's display panel without significant battery repercussions). None of the Nexus series devices got Pixel Launcher (officially at least), but they're all capable of side-loading it (i.e. no 64-bit only libraries), and none of the Nexus series got the Pixel style navigation bar, but I suppose those two could be written off as 'Pixel Exclusives', and are 32-bit agnostic anyway.
One more shining example of 32-bit getting updates just fine is the Android One program, which contains a boatload of currently supported devices (many of which are expected to get O), many of which are not only 32-bit, but MediaTek powered (unrelated, but still interesting).
npjohnson said:
Apologies for the typo there. GPLv3 (which requires source release) ==> Apache (which does not). As you noted though, kernel sources are GPLv3.
I really have been paying attention though. I too wondered why the Nexus 6 didn't get Nougat as quickly, and why the 6P's 7.1.2 updates were delayed. If you do some static disassembly/analysis on the Nexus 6's proprietary blobs (in specific, take a look at the prebuilt qcom binaries, like qmuxd and mm-qcamera and the date they were signed), you can deduce that the reason we saw a delayed 7.1.1 (and 7.0 for that matter) on the Nexus 6 was because QCOM either had issues with the specific hardware peripherals related, or just wasn't keen on working on them. An issue that isn't strictly related to 32-bit support, because we saw the same exact issue with Angler on the initial 7.1.2 Beta release (some blobs which are pre-signed being dated barely before the build date). Plus the Nexus 6 itself was never intended to be a Nexus phone. In an interview with one of the Engineer's who worked on the Nexus 6, they stated that there initially was another manufacturer who backed out last minute, forcing them to use the Moto X Pro shell that shipped in China (the hardware is identical + an IR sensor for Moto Display), so Google hasn't ever been to keen on the Nexus 6.
And, what are you referring to that 64-bit devices got that the Nexus 6 didn't? Other than some of the gestures, I don't see it. The 6, 6P, and 5x all got Assistant (well, everyone did), with 7.1.1, they all got gesture support (the 6 is missing one, I think double-tap to wake? And that's because it never worked reliably on the 6's display panel without significant battery repercussions). None of the Nexus series devices got Pixel Launcher (officially at least), but they're all capable of side-loading it (i.e. no 64-bit only libraries), and none of the Nexus series got the Pixel style navigation bar, but I suppose those two could be written off as 'Pixel Exclusives', and are 32-bit agnostic anyway.
One more shining example of 32-bit getting updates just fine is the Android One program, which contains a boatload of currently supported devices (many of which are expected to get O), many of which are not only 32-bit, but MediaTek powered (unrelated, but still interesting).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you look close at the one program, it was an epic fail. They seldom see an update. MTK bweing the main reason they dont get updates. Just ask anyone where andoid one is even sold. Many never even saw a single update.
If you look at the official software that was pushed (not what was pushed to AOSP as they are different) to the pixel you will notice things like the system ui being different as google now closed alot of that off.
Delayed/. You mean delayed, pushed, pulled and then reuploaded. Even with things still broken on the n6. I mean even the latest update for it disabled saftynet checks for the nexus 6 as a workaround for the changes in the code that didnt convert properly from 64bit to 32bit.
You have to understand that google doesnt care about anything older. All they are worring about is the pixel line now.
rignfool said:
Hence why you look silly putting up this thread...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think I look silly at all. Based on the conversation on the thread. I think it was a good discussion.
It's still possible for Nexus 6 to see Android 8.0 but it's now more of a chicken and egg issues. As for Android 7.1.2, I am sure it's still officially a hybrid build as well. All we can do is wait and see what's in Android 8.0 Oreo source code this early winter.
As for Nexus player, I doubt they locked Long Mode out of firmware, it's impossible because the kernel can call the stack register required for a jump from Protected Mode (32-bit) into Long Mode (64-bit) directly, no matter what (yes, even in MS-DOS). It's up to Google to decide if Nexus Player stay in 32-bit mode - I bet Android 8.0 will allow it to enter Long Mode this time, with the Long Mode option enabled in Linux kernel - only CPU-Z app will tell you whether it's running in 64-bit mode.
we believe in great developers like in lineageOS they are still supporting nexus 4 and nexus 5 without any problems with regularly updates , but if android o is 64 bit that will be the pain
Dr. Mario said:
It's still possible for Nexus 6 to see Android 8.0 but it's now more of a chicken and egg issues. As for Android 7.1.2, I am sure it's still officially a hybrid build as well. All we can do is wait and see what's in Android 8.0 Oreo source code this early winter.
As for Nexus player, I doubt they locked Long Mode out of firmware, it's impossible because the kernel can call the stack register required for a jump from Protected Mode (32-bit) into Long Mode (64-bit) directly, no matter what (yes, even in MS-DOS). It's up to Google to decide if Nexus Player stay in 32-bit mode - I bet Android 8.0 will allow it to enter Long Mode this time, with the Long Mode option enabled in Linux kernel - only CPU-Z app will tell you whether it's running in 64-bit mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I wish this was right, but the 2-nd Stage Bootloader (a LittleKernel derivative) runs in strictly 32-bit mode, and we are unable to load any 64-bit kernel's, plus, several device firmwares for the Nexus Player (as provided by Intel) are strictly 32-bit, and don't work in 64-bit contexts.
zelendel said:
If you look close at the one program, it was an epic fail. They seldom see an update. MTK bweing the main reason they dont get updates. Just ask anyone where andoid one is even sold. Many never even saw a single update.
If you look at the official software that was pushed (not what was pushed to AOSP as they are different) to the pixel you will notice things like the system ui being different as google now closed alot of that off.
Delayed/. You mean delayed, pushed, pulled and then reuploaded. Even with things still broken on the n6. I mean even the latest update for it disabled saftynet checks for the nexus 6 as a workaround for the changes in the code that didnt convert properly from 64bit to 32bit.
You have to understand that google doesnt care about anything older. All they are worring about is the pixel line now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Several of the One program's phones like, seed, seed2, general mobile 4g, have all not only been hosted on Google's factory image page, and some even got updates much faster than the Nexus 6 did (comical, and ridiculous I agree, but 32-bit non-the-less).
And, with the Pixel's I would agree that Google close sources several app (SystemUI, Frameworks-res, etc.) but it is worth questioning a few things:
1) If they'd given the Nexus's those apps, don't you suppose there'd be some backlash from owners who bought the phone because of its open source nature? The Pixel's made no promise of that.
2) Are the small features they contain even worth it? A blue color scheme (when the old teal is arguably more visually appealing), circular icons (which many hate), and a Night Light Overlay (this is useful, but requires a new hardwarecomposer setup that the 6P just doesn't have, and all the 3rd party/flashable solutions fall back to using a GL shader and the device's battery/performance takes a noticeable compared to the Pixels implementation).
And, as for the SafetyNet check disabling, though Android Police said that, there is literally no proof. The check tokens are still sent, and verified server side, and if you're rooted, the device still fails the authentication. AP threw out some unsubstantiated information. No deivce side-change was needed on the Nexus 6, so they re-uploaded the same factory image, and made a server side change. And nowhere was anything said about it being 64 ==> 32-bit code incompatibility. Do you have any source on that?
npjohnson said:
Well, I wish this was right, but the 2-nd Stage Bootloader (a LittleKernel derivative) runs in strictly 32-bit mode, and we are unable to load any 64-bit kernel's, plus, several device firmwares for the Nexus Player (as provided by Intel) are strictly 32-bit, and don't work in 64-bit contexts.
Several of the One program's phones like, seed, seed2, general mobile 4g, have all not only been hosted on Google's factory image page, and some even got updates much faster than the Nexus 6 did (comical, and ridiculous I agree, but 32-bit non-the-less).
And, with the Pixel's I would agree that Google close sources several app (SystemUI, Frameworks-res, etc.) but it is worth questioning a few things:
1) If they'd given the Nexus's those apps, don't you suppose there'd be some backlash from owners who bought the phone because of its open source nature? The Pixel's made no promise of that.
2) Are the small features they contain even worth it? A blue color scheme (when the old teal is arguably more visually appealing), circular icons (which many hate), and a Night Light Overlay (this is useful, but requires a new hardwarecomposer setup that the 6P just doesn't have, and all the 3rd party/flashable solutions fall back to using a GL shader and the device's battery/performance takes a noticeable compared to the Pixels implementation).
And, as for the SafetyNet check disabling, though Android Police said that, there is literally no proof. The check tokens are still sent, and verified server side, and if you're rooted, the device still fails the authentication. AP threw out some unsubstantiated information. No deivce side-change was needed on the Nexus 6, so they re-uploaded the same factory image, and made a server side change. And nowhere was anything said about it being 64 ==> 32-bit code incompatibility. Do you have any source on that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People these days aways looking for proof when info like this can't be shared openly nor can sources. You would be amazed at things talked about in development chats that don't make it to the users.
Just sit back and watch. I like most other developers have already decided to leave the N6 and get newer devices. When asked about it they already said they will not be converting any 64bit code at all. So anything that is coded for 64 bit devices then the N6 will never see it.
At least I have two agendas on hand; 1. I am already planning on buying the next Nexus (Pixel 2) or similar phone with Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 SOC whose bootloader remain user-unlockable and usable on Verizon network (I absolutely hate Verizon's locked bootloader policy). 2. There's other options, like Ubuntu Touch.
npjohnson said:
No developers are "working" on 7.1.2 (except maybe a few brave kernel developers), because the source isn't pushed to AOSP until the final release.
I don't mean to start a flame war, but this just isn't right. There has been no effort to "remove" 32-bit support. In fact, the Nexus Player is still a 32-bit device (albeit x86) which is supported by O, it may be 64-bit hardware, but due to proprietary firmware, they decided to have the 2nd-stage bootloader, and kernel/user-space boot in 32-bit mode. It has the O preview out now. Plus the 32-bit toolchains still get active support, and even 64-bit devices (i.e. angler/marlin) run some amount of arm(32) code in the form of their proprietary firmware/libraries, so we'll always need the ability to run 32-bit code on Android, and therefore, not stripping 32-bit compatibility from Android.
Also, there haven't been any specific moves by Google in terms of AOSP source away from 32-bit support.
I'd bet just about any amount of money the Nexus 6 will see O once source drops.
Why would O be the last AOSP we see? Android is mostly licensed under GPLv3, so they have to release source (that compiles) for the large majority of android. If you're refereeing to the fushcia OS they are creating, according to git logs, it is to be used on intergrated system's, as the kernel they wrote is very minimal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I sure hope to see Android O on our Shamu! Fingers crossed we'll start to slowly see ROMs after official release and AOSP! Hope it's possible!
---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------
rester555 said:
I don't think I look silly at all. Based on the conversation on the thread. I think it was a good discussion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's no such thing as a dumb question, how else does one learn? :angel: