Hi All,
I am trying to test some image analysis applications with the Huawei P9. Is it possible to extract two images (one from each camera) from a single shot? I know one of the cameras has a monochrome lens, and I know how to obtain just the monochrome image, but it would be extremely valuable if I could obtain both images from just one shot.
Looking forward to your assistance,
Josh
I do not want to stop your enthusiasm, but from my tests, they don't exists two images from one shot.
I didn't do my tests with an engineering approach, I only did some empirical test and from these I gather that:
- when you setup the Monochrome mode, the P9 activates the left camera (on the left when facing the phone back)
- with all the other modes, the P9 activates the right camera (the one between the flash and the left camera)
The P9 doesn't create 2 images, than combine them, it just shot always 1. How I came to this conclusion? You can also try it at home:
I choosen few static subject and I made my photos with the phone on tripod, than I did many photoshoots in the normal way and also by covering alternately the 2 cameras with a black scotch tape.
Even by naked eye, even by using an image comparation software (I used Beyond Compare from Scooter Software) I found no difference at all, no more brightness, no more contrast, no better image definition.
I did in a bright environment, in a dark one, I enabled and disabled the PRO mode and I tried to do a testing more complete as I could (honestly, I omitted to test the image in RAW mode, I tested only JPEGs), but my conclusion is that the 2 cameras are doing a different job, but they are definetely NOT working together.
Thanks for testing, but did you also try this outside on a landscape view? Maybe then we will see other results?
Otherwise this is yet ANOTHER thing Huawei lied about.
Yes, I did.
I'm thinking about making a full post about photo comparation. Let's see
ScareIT said:
Yes, I did.
I'm thinking about making a full post about photo comparation. Let's see
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be nice!
Hey guys. I did a quick test shooting in bokeh mode or aperture effect (I guess you know what I mean). If you cover the black and white lense it lets you shoot the picture BUT NOT edit the depth of field once you took the picture.
If you uncover the lense, it works like it is supposed and also stores the depth information (two lenses are crucial to get depth information).
Thus, in order to extract two images from one shot, the best guess is that you try it in bokeh mode. But even then I dont know if its possible. However, the phone definitely uses both lenses that time.
Great oTToToTenTanz!
I confirm that! Both cameras are essential to enable the wide aperture effect: when you try to shoot in the bokeh mode it appear an alert to check if the lens is clear, the blurred effect disappears and it's impossible to edit the depth in post-production.
I make 2 hypothesis:
- the phone really combines the 2 pictures in order to recreate the depth (is a strategy used in all the 3D cameras), so in some way there should be the possibility to get both pictures
- the phone uses the laser pointer to shot IR around the subject, then the monochrome camera will get the infrared information (and considering that its lens is without the RGB filter, will be very efficient to do that) and store them in order to obtain an accurate depth (I mean something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgrMVp7fMIE)
Nice things to try!
Additional Info on Depth
oTToToTenTanz said:
Hey guys. I did a quick test shooting in bokeh mode or aperture effect (I guess you know what I mean). If you cover the black and white lense it lets you shoot the picture BUT NOT edit the depth of field once you took the picture.
If you uncover the lense, it works like it is supposed and also stores the depth information (two lenses are crucial to get depth information).
Thus, in order to extract two images from one shot, the best guess is that you try it in bokeh mode. But even then I dont know if its possible. However, the phone definitely uses both lenses that time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey oTToToTenTanz,
Really appreciate your (and everyone else's) help on this! Can you give me some more info on how you actually extract the depth info in a usable form e.g. a matrix? Does the image just produce an RGB-D image once saved?
Thanks so much,
Josh
Yes unfortunately I think this is simply a feature that huawei lied about. The phone doesn't actually use both lenses at the same time to produce better quality normal photos; the monochrome lens is only used for bw mode or to obtain depth information for the wife aperture mode. The two lenses are not used in conjunction to provide better low light performance. You can try it yourself as stated earlier in the thread, cover the bw lens with your finger and compare the photos with normal ones: they'll look the same...
As far as I understand it, there are two cases in which both cameras are used.
One is for the wide-aperture ("bokeh") mode, in which a depth map is created from both pictures that have a slightly different perspective. I've read somewhere that the resulting image is a normal JPG file that is way too large, so it seems that there is additional data after the end of the actual JPG image. This would also explain why the capability to adjust depth of field is lost once the file is opened and saved by any application. I'll have a look at such a file when I have some spare time; maybe I'll find out more.
The other case is landscape shots in low light. Several people reported that covering the second camera in this scenario results in much darker images. This seems like a silly limitation, but I believe I understand why it's there. The two images that the cameras take differ in perspective (obviously, due to the fact that the cameras are mounted next to each other), which is quite difficult to adjust for when trying to combine both sensors' data. However, when focusing at infinity, for example when taking landscape shots, the difference in perspective is negligible, so that in this case the two sensors' data can be easily combined to improve low-light performance.
Maybe it would be possible to combine both sensors' output at closer distances in a satisfactory way, but it seems that Huawei chose not to implement that. If I find a way to extract the second sensor's data from a wide-aperture image, I'll poke around a bit to see if it would be possible to combine them.
I did some poking around on my lunch break. I threw a wide-aperture image into JPEGsnoop and it came up with two images in the file (four if you count the thumbnails, as well), the first one being the processed, "bokeh" image, while the second is the original color image without any processing. I assume that this is the image that is used to re-process the wide-aperture image when editing the focus point or aperture through the gallery app.
JPEGsnoop also told me that there's more data after the image segments. Since it couldn't work out what that data is for (this is past the end of the actual JFIF file), I checked it out using a hex editor. I found a marker "edof" (extended depth-of-field?) followed by what looks like some header data, followed lots of repeating bytes. This block is about 1/16 the size of the image in pixels (so 1 byte for each 4x4 pixel block). I'm not sure whether that's a small greyscale version of the image itself or a depth map, but I suspect it's the latter.
So, I'm afraid that it will be impossible to extract the monochrome image sensor data from a wide-aperture image, as it's not there anymore.
PerpulaX said:
I've read somewhere that the resulting image is a normal JPG file that is way too large, so it seems that there is additional data after the end of the actual JPG image. This would also explain why the capability to adjust depth of field is lost once the file is opened and saved by any application. I'll have a look at such a file when I have some spare time; maybe I'll find out more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I confirm that: I did few shots on a single subject (always using tripod);
- the pictures in normal mode and with wide aperture with the BW camera covered results in 2.5 MB weight (max resolution; the photo's Title/Subject/Description is marked as "edh"
- the same subject in wide aperture mode (with the BW camera fully working) results in 5.5 MB weight (more than double); the photo's Title/Subject/Description is marked as "edf"; if this photo is opened with some image editing software, no alpha layers or other visual information appears anywhere; if the photo is saved back, the size will became comparable to the same photo without wide aperture effect
As depth information are not appearing in any editing software, I suppose they are hidden inside the jpeg file with some kind of steganography technique. I tried to examine the file with some ready-to-use tool (like stegdetect, that should be capable to detect if a jpeg file is standard or has something hidden) but I get only some mismatching header error, nothing that can let me understand where and how the depth information are stored and, primarily, if the black and white picture is also stored inside.
The cam seems to be making two Images for every shot. You can for - instance - make a picture and then edit it with the onboard effects. If i make the picture e.g. partially B&W, I can see, that it does use an original B&W picture taken with the original shot. This is not an artificial B&W.
The question is, where it is stored or are the necessary informations only "combined"?
PerpulaX, ScareIT you guys are right,
- the 992x744 depth map is coded on 8 bits at the end of the file, use HxD editor to extract the image (check the tags in ascii code "edof" & "DepthEn" ).
- displayed jpg is the saved one after blur processing on your sd card
- hidden jpeg in exif is the original image shot , without blur processing.
So it explains why you can re-edit your picture anytime on your P9 even after renaming... or simply have fun with the depth map for detouring in photoshop for instance
Made a python script to automate the EDOF and image extraction. It's simple but it works.
https://github.com/jpbarraca/dual-camera-edof
zoubla88 said:
PerpulaX, ScareIT you guys are right,
- the 992x744 depth map is coded on 8 bits at the end of the file, use HxD editor to extract the image (check the tags in ascii code "edof" & "DepthEn" ).
- displayed jpg is the saved one after blur processing on your sd card
- hidden jpeg in exif is the original image shot , without blur processing.
So it explains why you can re-edit your picture anytime on your P9 even after renaming... or simply have fun with the depth map for detouring in photoshop for instance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you explain what is possible to do in post-process? What can I do with the photo?
You can do exactly the same thing as the Huawei gallery app (at least).
For Photoshop there are plenty of tutorials using Depth Maps with the Lens Blur plugin
ScareIT said:
Yes, I did.
I'm thinking about making a full post about photo comparation. Let's see
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Waiting for more details and experience sharing from you
Tijauna said:
Yes unfortunately I think this is simply a feature that huawei lied about. The phone doesn't actually use both lenses at the same time to produce better quality normal photos; the monochrome lens is only used for bw mode or to obtain depth information for the wife aperture mode. The two lenses are not used in conjunction to provide better low light performance. You can try it yourself as stated earlier in the thread, cover the bw lens with your finger and compare the photos with normal ones: they'll look the same...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hy!
I think, that P9 does take two pictures and combines them in low light conditions. Here is two example, when something went wrong with the combination of images, and the two images becomes visible: https://goo.gl/photos/cK5q2TEisEU7rmpz9
What do you think?
Abel
So the file size is increased when B&W is uncovered but gives no actual benefit to the picture? Damn it, as useless as Interpolation!
Hi guys,
I have just got the phone on Monday and I noticed that default setting for the camera is to take photos in 10 megapixels mode.
Is there any advantage of 10mp over 40mp mode that is available? What are differences?
I personally noticed that 40MP photos are darker and I need to hold my phone more steady than when taking them in 10MP resolution.
I attached 2 identical photos. The darker one is 10MP, the brighter one, little more blurry is 40MP
40MP option does not allow you to zoom. Only 1x
Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk
lozohcum said:
Hi guys,
I have just got the phone on Monday and I noticed that default setting for the camera is to take photos in 10 megapixels mode.
Is there any advantage of 10mp over 40mp mode that is available? What are differences?
I personally noticed that 40MP photos are darker and I need to hold my phone more steady than when taking them in 10MP resolution.
I attached 2 identical photos. The darker one is 10MP, the brighter one, little more blurry is 40MP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No real benefit. It uses pixel binning to downscale from 40mp to 10mp so essentially they end up the same quality
For quick snap or share I use the default Photo mode with 10 MP. If the photo will be used for web or print - then I use PRO mode + RAW format. RAW image from the main sensor is always is 40 MP - It does not depend on the resolution you choose.
RAW image + Lightroom edit + export is the best option for crisp and great quality photos.
techops said:
For quick snap or share I use the default Photo mode with 10 MP. If the photo will be used for web or print - then I use PRO mode + RAW format. RAW image from the main sensor is always is 40 MP - It does not depend on the resolution you choose.
RAW image + Lightroom edit + export is the best option for crisp and great quality photos.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's true. If you're planning on shooting raw and editing yourself this is an instance where 40mp makes much more sense.
See men basically in well lit condition 10mp will take 9ver exposed pictures and 10 mp is for darker scenarios and 40mps use in day-time
Uooer image shot on 10mp u can see blue floor and red
Picture below is well balanced
I use 40 mp in when there is enough light, i prefer it for the more natural color and because I find 10mp over exposed
And I use 10 mp in low light condition
The recent Asus system update includes improvements to the stock camera’s picture quality, so I did a quick test to see if I could spot any obvious difference when compared to the GCam (Wichita 1.4) that’s also on my Zenfone 8.
In my previous tests I found pictures from the Asus camera to be over sharpened. This makes foliage look good on a small screen but when viewed large the pictures have an overall processed look. This is something I’m aware of since I’ve made largish prints (50 x 70cm) from some of my previous smartphone shots.
Unfortunately I didn’t spot any improvement that the latest update has made as they are still aggressively sharpened.
GCam pictures have the opposite problem and look too soft when enlarged. So in this test I’ve altered the sharpness: Settings > Advanced > Ram Patcher > Sharpness > 1.500.
The GCam Jpegs are also consistently too dark. I tried to alter the brightness using Settings > Advanced > Ram Patcher > HDR Overall Lightness, but this just blew out the highlights and negated the HDR effect. I’ll have to experiment with some of the other HDR settings to see if I can lighten just the shadows and midtones. I lightened the Jpeg in Photoshop for this comparison.
It’s also possible to shoot a Raw+Jpeg with the GCam. Raw files look flat and greyish straight from the camera but when post processed they give a slightly cleaner and sharper result. They are only16MP rather than the full 64MP the camera is capable of, so hopefully Wichaya will alter this in future mods.
The GCam still gives better picture quality compared with the Asus, but the bright and punchy look of the Asus shots is very good too. If you are into photography and want to get the most from the Zenfone 8 then it’s worth trying the GCam and fine tuning it to suit your needs. The examples below are cropped from the central area of the picture.
If a developer brings out a mod of the Asus camera that allows adjustments to sharpness and brightness, etc, I’d certainly be interested, especially if it could also shoot 64MP Raw.
Have you tried toggling the model settings on GCam to see if that improves the detail?
I have made a few posts about the Asus camera and became familiar with some of its less obvious details and features. Here’s some notes that apply mainly to daylight shots. I’ll make a separate post about night shots.
Asus 64MP Jpegs
You can take a 64MP Jpeg picture in one of three ways;
The normal camera’s “4:3 (64MP)”
The Pro camera’s “4:3 (64MP)”
And the Pro camera’s “RAW+JPG” settings
HDR processing is not used on the 64MP Jpegs so they are not suitable for general photography as they can lack detail in the highlights and shadows.
You might find a use for the normal camera’s 64MP Jpeg if you ever need the highest resolution Jpeg of a subject with limited dynamic range as it is slightly sharper than the normal camera’s 16MP HDR Jpeg.
I’d avoid ever using either of the Pro camera’s 64MP Jpegs - they are a lot more noisier than the normal camera’s 64MP Jpeg.
Asus Smaller Resolution Jpegs
All of the 16MP(and smaller sized) Jpegs have HDR processing and so will make better looking pictures than the 64MP Jpegs, especially for general subjects. They also have smaller file sizes than the 64MP pictures.
Asus Raw Files
Use the Pro camera’s “RAW+JPG” setting to record a 64MP DNG file if you want to make the very highest quality shots. I transfer the DNGs to my laptop and edit then in a Raw file editor, Capture One. Other Raw editors, such as Lightroom and Affinity Photo, etc, can be used. The noisy 64MP Jpeg that is recorded alongside the Raw file can be discarded.
Raw files are the best option to use if you want to produce the highest quality shot from a mobile phone. Jpeg files can be edited afterwards too, but Raw files contain lots more digital data than Jpegs and are more suited to post production. I use the Asus normal camera HDR Jpegs for general photography, but for special shots use either the Asus 64MP Raw or the the Wichaya GCam Raw files and edit them afterwards.
The final look of an edited Raw file depends on your skill, experience and preferences. But the edited 64MP (9168x6872 pixels) Asus Raw beats the 16MP (4560x3416 pixels) Wichaya GCam Raw, as it is definitely sharper and more finely detailed.
However you won’t see much difference between these two edited Raw files unless you view them alongside each other at the same viewing size - i.e. Asus at 100%, Wichita at 200%. So for general purposes either and be used. (See attached screenshot)
Although the Asus Raw is sharper it is also grainier, especially in smoother, less detailed areas - but sharp detail is more important than visible grain if you ever need to make large prints.
Asus camera fast startup
You can open the Asus camera from the lock screen without entering a pin code or unlocking the phone. At the bottom right corner of the lock screen is a small symbol - swipe it up to open the Asus camera without unlocking the phone.
Gallery app Raw file previews
When you open a Raw file in an editor app it has almost no color, the highlights are white and shadows are black. The camera’s gallery app shows you a preview of how it looks as a Jpeg.
Asus camera vs Wichaya GCam
All of my previous tests have shown the Asus stock camera produces better looking pictures than the Wichaya Gcam, at least in my opinion. They are punchier, better exposed and have a more accurate white balance. They are, however, generally over-sharpened and highlights are over-smoothed. When enlarged they look flatter and less natural that the Wichaya GCam shots.
Unfortunately the Asus camera allows no control over sharpness, highlights and shadow detail, HDR intensity, etc. Wichaya’s GCam Ram Patcher settings let you adjust many parameters but so far I have not been able to alter them to look as good as the Asus camera. I look forward to the Wichays’s next GCam version and hope to have more success.
If you have used a different GCam APK that produces better results than the Asus camera please share your findings, preferable with comparison pictures - I’m sure Zenfone 8 users would be interested.
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Thread closed per [OP] request.
jackeagle
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