Hello,
i just got my hands on the Z3 Compact and took it out to test it on a sunny day.
Back home i noticed that the picture quality is really bad in auto mode!
I made a quick comparison picture to my old phone: a Xiaomi Mi2 (not the S Model) with 8m Camera.
The picture shows the text quality of the Xperia Z Ultra Power Pack which is the best example i can do now.
The automode settings are: ISO-800, F/2, 1/50 Sec, no flash
The Mi2 automode settings are: ISO-488, 1/16 Sec (no data on the F), no flash
Directlink:
http://abload.de/img/neuebitmapoksb8.png
And here the same with manual mode and a lower ISO (100 instead of 800 that was used in auto mode):
The complete settings were: ISO-100, F/2, 1/8 Sec, no flash
Directlink:
http://abload.de/img/dsc_0099emqqy.jpg
Heres another example of a picture i took when i was outside (without zoom, i just cut away some parts to make it smaller):
The automode settings here: ISO-50, F/2, 1/320sec, no flash
Directlink:
http://abload.de/img/dsc_0036lujf6.jpg
Any idea why automode causes such very bad picture quality? Any ideas on how to improve it?
Thank you for help!
Why bother so much about the auto mode? You can take such great pictures in manual mode when you play with the settings. In the end auto mode will never be great, because it does what it says: auto mode, it adjusts the settings to what it thinks is best in each situation.
Playing with the manual mode will also give you more knowledge of basic photography.
Sent from my D5803
Auto mode became better over time on the Z1C, I guess they'll keep improving it. Dunno if they made a step back here.
Dsteppa said:
Why bother so much about the auto mode? You can take such great pictures in manual mode when you play with the settings. In the end auto mode will never be great, because it does what it says: auto mode, it adjusts the settings to what it thinks is best in each situation.
Playing with the manual mode will also give you more knowledge of basic photography.
Sent from my D5803
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Auto mode will always be handy.. no one wants to mess with settings most of the times.. its a phone camera and if i want manual controls i would pick a dslr. Thats why iphone wins in camera department. Take it out and snap a pic instantly with great output. Even on my galaxy s5 i take pictures on auto and i havent seen anyone setting things up manually each and every time to take a damn photo
Auto mode uses a technique called oversampling to gather information with the 20MP sensor, then heavily processes the photo to whatever the software (Sony) decided was best (post-processing). The idea is you get the detail of a 20MP sensor, in a auto-corrected and down-sized 8MP resolution photo. Oversampling is also why the Z3 has a small amount of "lossless" zoom. (ever tried "zooming" with other phone cameras? It usually leaves you with a terrible blob of digital noise)
As with any automatic post-processing, there are pros and cons. The truth is, the software doesn't really know what you're taking a picture of, so it tries to give it's best guess on correcting exposure, colour, noise, etc. The result you're seeing in the auto-mode photo is a result of heavy post-processing (Noise Reduction), bad focus, and camera shake.
The reason your "manual" photo is better is because manual mode drops the post-processing. It also looks like you were able to hold the camera steadier for the manual shot.
"Auto" mode is far from perfect, but it will often save you more times than you know. Over time, you'll learn the strengths and weaknesses of "auto mode", and you'll know when you need to switch to Manual for the better shot. Auto mode can also be easily improved upon via software updates.
PS: A little trick I use to minimize camera shake while taking a photo is to set a quick 2 second self timer. This will allow you time to press the shutter button and then stabilize the phone for minimal "camera shake"
I have read the z3 Compact camera is great, great, great...but yeah I have been grossly underwhelmed by the auto mode. The auto mode is THE mode...sure have a manual mode if you want...if you have time. But I use my phone for quick snaps...QUICK being the operative word. I want to pull it out aim and shoot. My iphone5 took very acceptable pictures. The z3 compact has shown me grainy, bland looking shots in auto.
I don't get why auto mode isn't the most important mode for designers. It's a phone...not a camera...so make the auto mode work
Yeah, camera is definitely underwhelming. That being said though, it's better than most. My Moto X took absolutely horrid shots for the most part.
Crewville96 said:
Yeah, camera is definitely underwhelming. That being said though, it's better than most. My Moto X took absolutely horrid shots for the most part.
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Coming from 2 years on the iphone5...I was under the impression that camera technology was pretty well mastered across the board. iphone makes it look easy. There's even an annoying lag between pressing the button and the shot being taken on the Z3...what the hell is up with that?
Eclypz said:
Auto mode uses a technique called oversampling to gather information with the 20MP sensor, then heavily processes the photo to whatever the software (Sony) decided was best (post-processing). The idea is you get the detail of a 20MP sensor, in a auto-corrected and down-sized 8MP resolution photo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, my z3c is still on the way. I have a question. Will the 8MP pictures I take in Manual mode be oversampled as well?
Because the sensor is still 20MP and if I manually adjust it to take only 8MP pictures what advantage do I have in having a sensor that is 20MP? I never print photos. Only watch it on my phone, laptop or my LED tv which is 1080p and 50" screen. I don't want photos that are too big in file size unless it is benefiting me in some sense other than for the purpose of printing and viewing in very large resolutions. I see that oversampling in auto mode is benefiting from a 20MP sensor but is that the case if I take 8MP pics in manual mode?
coolmalayalee said:
Well, my z3c is still on the way. I have a question. Will the 8MP pictures I take in Manual mode be oversampled as well?
Because the sensor is still 20MP and if I manually adjust it to take only 8MP pictures what advantage do I have in having a sensor that is 20MP? I never print photos. Only watch it on my phone, laptop or my LED tv which is 1080p and 50" screen. I don't want photos that are too big in file size unless it is benefiting me in some sense other than for the purpose of printing and viewing in very large resolutions. I see that oversampling in auto mode is benefiting from a 20MP sensor but is that the case if I take 8MP pics in manual mode?
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By selecting 8MP in manual mode, all you're doing is resizing the photo from 20MP (post processing). The sensor will always capture at its full resolution.
If you know you only want a 8MP photo, there is a small benefit in resizing the photo at the phone:
The first benefit is obviously file size, but before I get into the second reason, I need to explain something first: A picture that has been converted to JPG is considered to be post processed. The compression that the JPG engine performs means your image loses details and thus has been altered. I know I said above that Manual mode means the image isn't processed, but I really only said that for the sake of explaining things easier. The average user does not consider JPG compression as post processing and they probably don't care to know. The truth is, unless Sony allows us to capture images in RAW format, the act of converting all our images to JPG means our images are all being post processed whether we like it or not. The difference between manual and auto mode is really about "how much" post processing occurs. In manual, Sony is most likely just compressing to JPG (and probably lens distortion correction but I won't get into that now) , and not applying corrections like noise reduction.
As for how it may be beneficial to resize at the phone; JPG compression is usually the final step in post processing. So by resizing at the phone, the theory is the image is captured in [email protected] > resized to 8MP while still in RAW format > compressed to JPG.
This means you benefit from the photo being resized before it is "post processed". In theory, this method should leave you with a higher quality 8MP photo versus resizing from a computer. Resizing from a computer means you're applying post processing to an already "post processed" photo.
For the average user, 8MP is more than enough, however, this is not to say all phone cameras should come in 8MP. Keep in mind that there is a big difference between an image captured by a 8MP sensor vs being captured by a 20MP sensor and then resized to 8MP. The 20MP sensor can capture much more detail with proper/sufficient lighting.
@wooki (OP):
Especially the first comparison "Xperia Z Ultra Power Pack", the one you made with the Z3C is nothing but blurred. So what is it you're trying to show/compare? I mean, yes, may the Z3C doesn't come with the best camera on the market, and yes, the "Auto mode" does not always provide the best results. Not really sure you're into photography or not, but what can be expected from a lens not even half the size of a fingernail? Not too much, right?! Get an SLR with decent lenses and a full frame sensor if you need more/better.
However, the attached fotos were one of the first ones I made with the Z3C (in Auto Mode) and think it's quite ok. No processing, just resized them.
@sxtester
I was comparing my Z3C with my old phone (a 2 year old Xiaomi Mi2) which seems to have a very good auto mode. Was just asking if i was the only one who has had a bad automode experience and if someone knows how to improve it.
How do your pictures look like without resizing?
As i'm owning a WQHD Screen all my automode pictures look very bad!
I don't want to set up the manual mode every time i want to take a picture, this phone has a shutter button to make fast pictures and with the setup phase i lose time even if manual mode gives me excellent pictures.
Eclypz said:
Auto mode uses a technique called oversampling to gather information with the 20MP sensor, then heavily processes the photo to whatever the software (Sony) decided was best (post-processing). The idea is you get the detail of a 20MP sensor, in a auto-corrected and down-sized 8MP resolution photo. Oversampling is also why the Z3 has a small amount of "lossless" zoom. (ever tried "zooming" with other phone cameras? It usually leaves you with a terrible blob of digital noise)
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The manual mode uses oversampling as well, if you select a lower resolution. I've compared an auto mode shot with a manual mode shot of the same scene, and both were equal in terms of details and noise. The main difference was that the auto mode shot looks far worse because it tends to use that horrible HDR which just washes out the photo and ruins the contrast to near non-existence. I find that "multi" light metering mode, selectable in manual mode, gives far better results than HDR on this phone.
---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------
Auto:
http://i.imgur.com/er38iZn.jpg
Manual:
http://i.imgur.com/Oqwl3KE.jpg
---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------
Furthermore, the pictures from this phone's camera would look a lot better if Sony used a better algorithm for their oversampling.
Here is a comparison between a 100% crop of an image taken using Sony's oversampling (8mp) (former attachment) and a 100% crop of a photo taken at 20mp, and then downsampled to the 8mp dimensions using Irfanview (latter attachment):
I agree....Sony's software is lacking compared to everybody else. Auto mode seems kind of hit or miss. Their camera sensors are excellent, as I believe the iPhone uses a Sony sensor, but the difference being Apple is able to process better looking images with their software. I also have a iPhone 5s, and I must agree that 7/10 times, I'll get a better looking image from the iPhone. In terms of capturing details, i think Z3C is better (as expected), but all my images from the Z3C are on the "red" side when shooting in auto-mode. In the end, the iPhone comes out with the better looking photo because I'd much rather have better colour re-production over slightly more detail that you wouldn't even notice unless you had a photo to compare against.
I still think the Z3C's camera is on par with the best from Samsung's Galaxy S5 and LG's G3 (Sony sensor). It's way better than my old HTC One M8's "ultrapixel".
On the Android side of things, I think Z3C is still top 3, and Top 5 in the Smartphone world (iPhone and Lumia above it).
wooki said:
@sxtester
How do your pictures look like without resizing?
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@wooki:
Here you go, all unedited made in Auto Mode:
http://imgur.com/uMiM0Sh
http://imgur.com/0mYsf5U
http://imgur.com/vJ32fjT
http://imgur.com/8g7oJD7
degraaff said:
Here is a comparison between a 100% crop of an image taken using Sony's oversampling (8mp) (former attachment) and a 100% crop of a photo taken at 20mp, and then downsampled to the 8mp dimensions using Irfanview (latter attachment):
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony's approach looks way better because it doesn't blur that heavily. If I want to blur away all the details, I can still do that myself.
This is a bit off-topic, but I don't really want to start a new thread just to ask such a silly question.
I've been playing with the camera app some more and is there seriously no "rule of thirds grid" in Sony's Camera app? I often like to use the grids to assist in making sure my shot is straight.
Iruwen said:
Sony's approach looks way better because it doesn't blur that heavily. If I want to blur away all the details, I can still do that myself.
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Click to collapse
Really? Sony's approach is full of over sharpening artifacts and -auras, doesn't look better at all IMO.
One dumb quetion.
If i use another camera APP, it will improve the photo quality?
point_pt said:
One dumb quetion.
If i use another camera APP, it will improve the photo quality?
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It depends. I choose CFV-5 and PNG image saving (rrather than JPG) and it looks much better then Superior auto, and sometimes better than Sony's Manual mode.
So coming from a photographer-background i feel that the camera on the P30 Pro is a bit heavy on the HDR. Meaning that it doesn't recreate blacks very well, and in some shot's where shadows would be better left natural, it gives it too much HDR. (Sorry the bad English)
Is there a way to adjust/turn off HDR on this camera?
I believe if you turn off the AI and shoot in auto it shouldn't apply any HDR - but I don't know this to be true.
It's somewhat difficult to get away from the HDR look since when you shoot in Auto mode at 10mpix it utilizes pixelbinning which will kinda look like HDR where highlights are pulled down and shadows are lifted. The only way to get around this is to use a third party camera application or to shoot RAW, and i do recommend you shoot RAW anyways to get away from the heavy overprocessing, noisereduction and sharpening.
/ Magnus
Use pro mode.
Thanks for the reply guys. But I don't have the time to shoot pro and RAW all the time when it comes to smartphone-photos. The phone is for taking quick shots for Instagram-stories and such.
If I want to get a proper shot I pull out my Nikon D800. But there should be an option to adjust the level of HDR in photo mode, turning off "AI" doesn't change much, sadly.
TordFuglstad said:
Thanks for the reply guys. But I don't have the time to shoot pro and RAW all the time when it comes to smartphone-photos. The phone is for taking quick shots for Instagram-stories and such.
If I want to get a proper shot I pull out my Nikon D800. But there should be an option to adjust the level of HDR in photo mode, turning off "AI" doesn't change much, sadly.
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Click to collapse
Use pro mode without changing any setting you will be fine.
Just surfing comparisons online and this video shows it goes both ways. Sometimes the P30 Pro pulls out the shadow detail, other times the 6T does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wevRTMspBIM
This is also bothering me, I turned off the AI on my previous P20 Pro, and this wasn't a problem. But now on the P30 Pro, even if I turn off the AI sometimes photos come out as horribly overprocessed to the extent that the photos can't even be fixed by post processing. The effect is very similar to heavy HDR (or glike going overboard with the Google Photos' Pop effect)
I found that using screen recording while using samsung camera app in photo mode makes the field of view wider compared to video. And dynamic range is better also.(forget 4k). But good for social media sharing.. but the only problem is the zoom toggle in the way. Is there any way to remove that toggles.. maybe a modded apk or something???...
I think it's because when the camera is in photo mode, the app uses the whole sensor. This means that it is recording with a resolution of 3000x4000 pixels (3:4 aspect ratio). But when you record 4K, the camera app uses only a portion of the sensor equal to 2160x3840 pixels (16:9 ratio). That is the reason you see a wider view in the photo mode and not in the video mode. The only solution right now, might be to use OpenCamera to record video but you have to select the 3:4 ratio in the video settings. If you do that though, OpenCamera will only film with a resolution of 1440x1080 so the video will not be that sharp. I admit, I would love to see a mod or a toggle from Samsung that lets you record in 3:4 though.
Thanks. But what about the hdr.. i mean i have tested it and the hdr performance with ultrawide camera in screen recording is great compared to normal video capture. Even in low light the screen recording looks way too wider and brighter and had great dynamic range. (I have also tested shoooting in 1:1 in video). Kindly test it out and see it yourself. But don't pixel peep it's obviously less crisp than 4k. But great for social media.
I see what you mean. Video from screen recorder is a bit different from video mode. However I do not know why this happens. I suspect that maybe screen recorder is not able to capture the whole color gamut of the HDR preview.
I have made a few posts about the Asus camera and became familiar with some of its less obvious details and features. Here’s some notes that apply mainly to daylight shots. I’ll make a separate post about night shots.
Asus 64MP Jpegs
You can take a 64MP Jpeg picture in one of three ways;
The normal camera’s “4:3 (64MP)”
The Pro camera’s “4:3 (64MP)”
And the Pro camera’s “RAW+JPG” settings
HDR processing is not used on the 64MP Jpegs so they are not suitable for general photography as they can lack detail in the highlights and shadows.
You might find a use for the normal camera’s 64MP Jpeg if you ever need the highest resolution Jpeg of a subject with limited dynamic range as it is slightly sharper than the normal camera’s 16MP HDR Jpeg.
I’d avoid ever using either of the Pro camera’s 64MP Jpegs - they are a lot more noisier than the normal camera’s 64MP Jpeg.
Asus Smaller Resolution Jpegs
All of the 16MP(and smaller sized) Jpegs have HDR processing and so will make better looking pictures than the 64MP Jpegs, especially for general subjects. They also have smaller file sizes than the 64MP pictures.
Asus Raw Files
Use the Pro camera’s “RAW+JPG” setting to record a 64MP DNG file if you want to make the very highest quality shots. I transfer the DNGs to my laptop and edit then in a Raw file editor, Capture One. Other Raw editors, such as Lightroom and Affinity Photo, etc, can be used. The noisy 64MP Jpeg that is recorded alongside the Raw file can be discarded.
Raw files are the best option to use if you want to produce the highest quality shot from a mobile phone. Jpeg files can be edited afterwards too, but Raw files contain lots more digital data than Jpegs and are more suited to post production. I use the Asus normal camera HDR Jpegs for general photography, but for special shots use either the Asus 64MP Raw or the the Wichaya GCam Raw files and edit them afterwards.
The final look of an edited Raw file depends on your skill, experience and preferences. But the edited 64MP (9168x6872 pixels) Asus Raw beats the 16MP (4560x3416 pixels) Wichaya GCam Raw, as it is definitely sharper and more finely detailed.
However you won’t see much difference between these two edited Raw files unless you view them alongside each other at the same viewing size - i.e. Asus at 100%, Wichita at 200%. So for general purposes either and be used. (See attached screenshot)
Although the Asus Raw is sharper it is also grainier, especially in smoother, less detailed areas - but sharp detail is more important than visible grain if you ever need to make large prints.
Asus camera fast startup
You can open the Asus camera from the lock screen without entering a pin code or unlocking the phone. At the bottom right corner of the lock screen is a small symbol - swipe it up to open the Asus camera without unlocking the phone.
Gallery app Raw file previews
When you open a Raw file in an editor app it has almost no color, the highlights are white and shadows are black. The camera’s gallery app shows you a preview of how it looks as a Jpeg.
Asus camera vs Wichaya GCam
All of my previous tests have shown the Asus stock camera produces better looking pictures than the Wichaya Gcam, at least in my opinion. They are punchier, better exposed and have a more accurate white balance. They are, however, generally over-sharpened and highlights are over-smoothed. When enlarged they look flatter and less natural that the Wichaya GCam shots.
Unfortunately the Asus camera allows no control over sharpness, highlights and shadow detail, HDR intensity, etc. Wichaya’s GCam Ram Patcher settings let you adjust many parameters but so far I have not been able to alter them to look as good as the Asus camera. I look forward to the Wichays’s next GCam version and hope to have more success.
If you have used a different GCam APK that produces better results than the Asus camera please share your findings, preferable with comparison pictures - I’m sure Zenfone 8 users would be interested.
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