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HTC TyTN II: Unrecoverable Power Failure

Hi, I have recently acquired (mid Sept. 2007) a TyTN II device: really a very good and nice device ... till yesterday.
Maybe my experience could be shared with some of you...
Yesterday my device suddenly turned off apparently because battery very low (i.e. less than 5% according to the manual): this is strange because as far as I remember my battery was charged enough to survive more than one day considering that I did not use Wifi/Bluetooth or many phone calls.
By the way, the problem occurred when I attempted to recharge the device: it spent hours under recharge but the power led never become green, but remained orange. I attempted anyway to startup the device, but as soon as the Windows OS started it automatically shutdown because battery too low was detected.
I performed several software reset and finally an hardware reset, while attempting also to recharge it also via USB but without any positive effect.
I contacted HTC which suggested me ... to provide back the device most likely for being replaced according to the DOA (Dead On Arrival) policy.
Please note that according to some tests I performed on the battery, this seems to be charged and the problem relying on the device or OS which do not recognize it as charged but so low that no operations are permitted.
Has some one experienced a similar issue with this new HTC device ?
Cheers,
Max

GF's 8125 did almost the same thing; wouldnt charge past 10% and kept sending notification after notification; this was literally right out of the box. Cingular/AT&T suspected the battery but replaced the 8125 as well.

So far I have not seen other reports of this for TyTn II. It is however a reasonably common problem with many different brands of phone.
Mike

Could be a Power managment issue its not uncommen at all. things go wrong in all electronic devices think of the millions of Kaisers that will be sold in the coming months a few are bound to messed up from the factory. Its like buying a car you know ****s guna happen but you buy it anyway since it looks really nice that first day!

Did you all charge using the supplied wallcharger instead of via USB?

JwY said:
Did you all charge using the supplied wallcharger instead of via USB?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make your kaiser power off, and use wallcharger. If it still doesn't work, call for HTC..

Some problems are solved by letting the internal battery drain, by leaving the device without the battery for a couple of days.

That issue can happen if you (almost) run out of battery.
Best practice: NEVER EVER run down your battery below 5% ! As soon as it reach 10%, switch off if you dont have charger at that time.
You might go below 10%, but take the risk .... !
It is known to us that the new Windows Mobile 5.0 supports persistant memory (your data will not lost when the battery runs out 0%), but it does not say that you will not be able to charge the battery!
More explanation? And how to revive the battery?
Read this thread:
http://www.modaco.com/Warning-Battery-Chargin-t233233.html
It is well explained, how that happen and how to recover the battery

gogol said:
That issue can happen if you (almost) run out of battery.
Best practice: NEVER EVER run down your battery below 5% ! As soon as it reach 10%, switch off if you dont have charger at that time.
You might go below 10%, but take the risk .... !
It is known to us that the new Windows Mobile 5.0 supports persistant memory (your data will not lost when the battery runs out 0%), but it does not say that you will not be able to charge the battery!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ey man, i followed the recommended procedure for the three firsts battery charges. First i plug the PDA and let charge at 100%, then i let the battery goes to 0% (yes, the PDA goes off, of course) and then plugin onto the wall charger, and let charge to the 100%, repeating this procedure three times.
I do this also with my previous PDA, Hermes. And no problem leting the PDA going to 0%...never see this problem before.
What is the supossed problem leting the battery goes to 0%?
Regards.
EDIT: Found this interesting information about LiIon... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery and http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

jcespi2005,
I simply dont know I just shared the link that I knew from modaco which is useful in this case.
Maybe this is not 100% the case, but as I said "best practice" ... something that it is better to follow to avoid this issue as you should read already that quite a lot of people affected by this very low depleted battery.

gogol said:
jcespi2005,
I simply dont know I just shared the link that I knew from modaco which is useful in this case.
Maybe this is not 100% the case, but as I said "best practice" ... something that it is better to follow to avoid this issue as you should read already that quite a lot of people affected by this very low depleted battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The modaco thread talks about Wizard, i think it's not 100% the same as Kaiser, cause is not the same battery, and the hard charge interface on the PDA can be different. I'm going to make a deep research about model and manufacturer for the Kaiser Battery, to see what can be the issue.
Anyway, i let my Kaiser goes 0% three times and charge fine for the three times. So i beleave the issue is not related with the battery itself. Can be the charger? don't know...
What is the model and manufacturer for your Kaiser battery, please?
Mine is Samsung model KAIS160.

Just checked and I have the same battery, SAMSUNG KAIS160.

I have now seen another report on another forum with this problem (Kaiser). I suggested the standard method as used when the refusing to charge issue arose with the Hermes (TyTn).
(It worked by the way!)
i.e.
1
Remove the battery for half an hour or so
2
With the battery still removed connect and switch ON the official (1000mA) MAINS charger (Not other brands that deliver only 500mA)
3
Now insert the battery
4
Wait for up to 5 mins for the Red LED to change to Orange
Repeat steps 3 and 4 if you have no success after waiting for a reasonable time.
(If that fails then elsewhere I have reported the technique of delivering a charge to the battery using a couple of AA batteries)
My view for what it's worth:
Although in rare cases there may be a faulty battery, in the main the problem is not caused by the battery. The likely explanation is that the circuit that detects the battery's presence, fails to detect the battery when the battery charge is very low. In other words there is no problem with battery but the battery charge detection circuit is either frozen or does not switch on when the battery charge is too low.
This issue I see reported across many brands of phone and is not a WM specific problem.
Mike

mikechannon said:
My view for what it's worth:
Although in rare cases there may be a faulty battery, in the main the problem is not caused by the battery. The likely explanation is that the circuit that detects the battery's presence, fails to detect the battery when the battery charge is very low. In other words there is no problem with battery but the battery charge detection circuit is either frozen or does not switch on when the battery charge is too low.
This issue I see reported across many brands of phone and is not a WM specific problem.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many thanks for the information, this confirms my suspects about the interface to the battery, and not the battery itself... i see this issue time ago with one Nokia 6100, and solve it with the same procedure you write. Sometimes LiIon battery gain some charge if you place in the refrigerator for a while (cool helps LiIon batterys, and warm hurts).
Regards.
EDIT: More info about charging LiIon battery here http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm
Seems there is no need to make three charge/discharge cycle before use the LiIon battery. Simply you can use and charge in any moment. Really is better sorts and many charges rather than less and longs charges/discharges.

Power Failure.
Hi guys,
Well the USB did the trick.
Don't forget the Red Wire is the + (Positive)
and
the black Wire is the - (Negative).
A few minutes holding in place did the trick.
Thanks a lot for this thread, I actually had the feeling that I have lost the Kaiser.
Ronen

irsw said:
Hi guys,
Well the USB did the trick.
Don't forget the Red Wire is the + (Positive)
and
the black Wire is the - (Negative).
A few minutes holding in place did the trick.
Thanks a lot for this thread, I actually had the feeling that I have lost the Kaiser.
Ronen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what USB trick? what wires, and where do you put them in the phone? thanks!

nevermind, just tried it and it definitely charged the phone, but when i then plugged it into the charger it the battery just decreased like before

theromanone said:
what USB trick? what wires, and where do you put them in the phone? thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello,
Take a USB cable (the one like you use to sync your pda) cut it in the middle, expose the wires inside.
The red wire (+) is to be attached to the PLUS of the battery, and the balck wire (-) is to be attached to the minus of the battery.
About one minute and fater re-install the battery and try charging again, this should do the trick.
You can also use 2 AA batteries in the same manner.
Yours,
Ronen

just happened to mine after only a month. Contacted att and the forum and had to get it replaced. So far nothing wrong with this one!

jcespi2005 said:
Many thanks for the information, this confirms my suspects about the interface to the battery, and not the battery itself... i see this issue time ago with one Nokia 6100, and solve it with the same procedure you write. Sometimes LiIon battery gain some charge if you place in the refrigerator for a while (cool helps LiIon batterys, and warm hurts).
Regards.
EDIT: More info about charging LiIon battery here http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm
Seems there is no need to make three charge/discharge cycle before use the LiIon battery. Simply you can use and charge in any moment. Really is better sorts and many charges rather than less and longs charges/discharges.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Mike,
Had my Kaiser sent to a lab, they are checking it but they are saying it is a faulty board.
The battery is ok although I bought a new one and tested it to find still the same problem.
Thanks.

Charging from PC - worth while?

Is charging our Kaisers from the PC ok? How much power does the USB provide to the Kaiser? Same as the standard adapter? I am asking this because I found no answer on the forum and I would prefer to load it directly from the PC every time rather than keep using the standard charger and putting it in the power outlet.

my advice for you to stop this option
because normaly we keep the phone connected to the pc for a long time and it makes the phone in charging mode all the time and iam sure that will make the battery dies fast
stop this option by disabling it from the battery options you can see it by clicking on the battery icon on the start bar
greetings

My phone has been plugged in to the USB at work all day, 5 days a week, for 5 months now. I can still get about 2 days out of the battery when I need to - for instance, after unplugging it each Friday at 5 I usually won't have to charge it until the same time on Sunday, the only time it generally does get plugged into the wall charger. I'm pretty sure my battery performance is still on a par with most people's - ie, not amazing, but quite livable with. It's certainly not showing any signs of harm from overcharging.

Boinng said:
My phone has been plugged in to the USB at work all day, 5 days a week, for 5 months now. I can still get about 2 days out of the battery when I need to - for instance, after unplugging it each Friday at 5 I usually won't have to charge it until the same time on Sunday, the only time it generally does get plugged into the wall charger. I'm pretty sure my battery performance is still on a par with most people's - ie, not amazing, but quite livable with. It's certainly not showing any signs of harm from overcharging.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here.. no problems. I don't even know where my charger is.

I charge mine from the PC all day too, and it stops charging when its at 100%. The bottom line is this: a USB port delivers a minimum of 500ma at 5v, the wall charger is probably very close if not more than that. The charging circuit in the phone does all the work of converting the 5dc into a charging voltage/current required by the battery, usually ramping up and down. Theres no difference other than maximum current between a USB port and ANY 5vdc adapter.

Wall wart gives 5V/1A. USB at 5V/500mA will not harm your battery. If you're using the standard battery, USB charging is appropriate to keep it topped up.
RMD

Isn't the constant charging of the batter bad for it?
I mean you charge it use it for a while then hook it up again and so on, isnt it better for the battery if you wait until it says that you have to recharge it?

According to my BatteryStatus, my wall charger gives me around +500-600mA (depending on programs running) and USB 2.0 charging from the front port on my computer gives about +100-300mA (depending on what's plugged into the computer and program usage).

Insaneboy said:
Isn't the constant charging of the batter bad for it?
I mean you charge it use it for a while then hook it up again and so on, isnt it better for the battery if you wait until it says that you have to recharge it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was a nicad battery issue lithium batteries do not have that issue.
-McMex

i think the point here is not if you charge it by usb or charger
for many people as they said it goes as well ok but it's an old advice used to be known that it's not good for your battery health to be on the charger all the time
also the same fact that it's always better to let the battery goes empty before you recharge it again some people have the sickness of recharging batteries when it's just gets 5 percent less , then they immaditaly start to recharge it again and this is a big mistake because in the long period the first levels of the battery start to die because they have never been used

mcmexican said:
That was a nicad battery issue lithium batteries do not have that issue.
-McMex
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Didn't know that.
Thanks.

haam1978 said:
the same fact that it's always better to let the battery goes empty before you recharge it again some people have the sickness of recharging batteries when it's just gets 5 percent less , then they immaditaly start to recharge it again and this is a big mistake because in the long period the first levels of the battery start to die because they have never been used
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, its quite the opposite of what you say. If you let Lithium batteries discharge all the way, they will loose their capacity faster.
The following link will back up my claim:
http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
Relevant quote: "Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns."

usb v wall charger
My kaiser
wall charger charges battery from flat (1%) in 1 hour
USB on PC takes 4 hours to go from 15 to 80%, only over night did it get to 100%.
I use wall charger everyday now.

axonn said:
Is charging our Kaisers from the PC ok? How much power does the USB provide to the Kaiser? Same as the standard adapter? I am asking this because I found no answer on the forum and I would prefer to load it directly from the PC every time rather than keep using the standard charger and putting it in the power outlet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i use the pc option especially when i am traveling and only have my portable. When using my portable, i plug my phone in to get a charge... i like this option as it saves me from having to lug around another adaptor as well as being able to charge my phone just off the batteries of my portable at any time,,,, good option

posted twice --- as usual being a post hog

It's fine. It just takes longer to charge, especially if you're transferring a lot of data.

With the lithium ion chemistry, it is very detrimental to the battery if you let it run down to empty all the time. The batteries do not like this at all and will exhaust much quicker this way. If you were to store the batteries, you should store them at 40% in a cool place as that would only lose 2% of life per year I believe. At 100% storage, you can lost 20% a year of life. A little reading at that battery university website goes a long way

johnny13oi said:
With the lithium ion chemistry, it is very detrimental to the battery if you let it run down to empty all the time. The batteries do not like this at all and will exhaust much quicker this way. If you were to store the batteries, you should store them at 40% in a cool place as that would only lose 2% of life per year I believe. At 100% storage, you can lost 20% a year of life. A little reading at that battery university website goes a long way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what happens when your battery that you leave stored at 100% loses 20% a year and a few years later it hits 40%?

Battery
haam1978: You are surely right for NiMh. But I don't know about Li-Ion. Time will tell. For now, I prefer to do it your way: discharge almost completely, BUT NOT TO 0%. Mostly to 5 - 10%. But the problem is that my stupid Windows doesn't report the life of the battery accurately ::- (. I got a Mugen 3000 Mah batt...
rotohammer & johnny13oi: Interesting website indeed. Unfortunately as I told haam, I can't get an accurate battery reading for this huge battery I got. Anyway, I'm still reviewing it ::- D.

rotohammer said:
Actually, its quite the opposite of what you say. If you let Lithium batteries discharge all the way, they will loose their capacity faster.
The following link will back up my claim:
http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
Relevant quote: "Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
100% correct.
On a side note, my kaiser will get fully charged way faster when connected to the wall as opposed to USB. (always connected to a desktop with a real big UPS).

Battery abuse.. or not?

What i was wondering, i really like to do some to flashing and doing stuff with my phone. so i noticed that i plug in and out my phone to my usb cable like 12 times a day? sometimes even more,
isnt this bad for the battery? which keeps charging and discharging? i know i can turn the usb charging off but i just wanted to know if it's bad or not.

Imperium said:
What i was wondering, i really like to do some to flashing and doing stuff with my phone. so i noticed that i plug in and out my phone to my usb cable like 12 times a day? sometimes even more,
isnt this bad for the battery? which keeps charging and discharging? i know i can turn the usb charging off but i just wanted to know if it's bad or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Old NiCad batteries had what you would call a "memory " and in order to get a full charge you were required to completely discharge them before recharging them. The newer Lithium ion / Lithium polymer batteries have no such "memory " and can be fully charged at any time without ill effect. All this is according to the manufacturer. There are still some who insist that the key to battery life is to fully discharge before charging.

It is better to keep Li Ion batteries charged and not let them discharge fully at all. This damages and/or reduces battery life.
I do what you do most of the time at work and no ill side effects now for over two years with pocket pc phones.

How to prolong battery life?

after upgrading to wm6.1 my xda's battery runs out comparatively faster then when it was running wm2003.
any tips to prolongs it battery life?
many thanks in advance

1) Minimize the use of wireless components: turn InfraRed (receive beam) and BlueTooth off when not using them.
2) Camera and full-screen graphics (games!) are a battery drain.

3. The OK button doesn't kill programs, use a taskmanager that doesn't allow them to stay alive in the background
4 animated gif's drain the battery, even when running invisible in the background
5 himalaya's are relatively old devices, lots of us still use the original batteries. Buying a new battery can make a world of difference
6 personally I have no problems with my battery, although it's still the original one, quite the contrary. It takes me an awful long time even when I deliberately drain it. When I'm working on my desktop computer, the Hima is always connected. During a 2 week holiday I had to recharge twice.
7 use a battery meter software to show you if it's fully charged.

couldnt agree more
the himas are very old devices, probably the second ever made Pocket pc, we should be happy they can run WM6.1 and hopefully WM6.5 too
btw Nice to See you Maggy

Thanks!!
thanks a lot to all of you for your quick replies.
i usually do all the things that you suggested in your posts like closing all the programs using a task manager and disabling the infrared beam recieving option etc.
but i guess the problem is i play a lot of heavy usage games.
my battery usually drains out in max 3 days of normal usage.
one more question: does it make any difference if i charge the hima when my pc is turned off? does it cause any harm to the battery or is the same as charging it when pc is turned on?

the hima wont charge if the Pc is off, to Charge it better, connect it via your Wall charger

Sorry Ather, for a change I have to disagree with you. Of course, when you turn your computer off using a mains switch, there's no 5V on the USB ports for more time than needed to drain the capacitors. But when you turn it off using the Start > shutdown or the "power" button on front of your computer (actually doing the same thing) lots of computers still leave 5V on the USB ports.
The "hardware" power button is software configurable, mine is configured as hibernate. After pressing it, Windows still responds by shutting down programs and processes and storing settings. So this same "hardware" power button needs to have power to understand you when you want to turn your computer back on. Lots of USB keyboards have an "on/off" button. That wouldn't work if it was a real on/off switch.
In the DOS era all power switches were still real hardware. In the early days of multitasking this has lead to lots of disasters by people forgetting to save their day's work that was still active in the background.
It is however good to watch the charge led on the Hima carefully. My Dell only keeps power on the on/off switch, the two PS2 ports, the two primary USB pots and the ethernet connector. The HP's I know give power to all USB ports all the time, no brand clones have different approaches.

sidxda said:
... my battery usually drains out in max 3 days of normal usage ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is a relatively long battery life. My own hima, now five years old, only lasts one day. It still runs on the original battery.

Same here...
kinderenh said:
That is a relatively long battery life. My own hima, now five years old, only lasts one day. It still runs on the original battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here... My battery also last for only one day. In addition it turns off when the battery is 20%. Earlier it was 5%. Is it because the battery is bad or Is it possible to configure this level in the registry?

Unfortunately, i dont have a wall charger for my hima. and therefore i can only chrage it via pc. i have lots of spare chargers though, so if someone can please specify how many volts and amps (the important details) the charger is, it would be great.
and with normal usage my xda runs for about two days.
thanks to all of u for ur input

5volts
and amps is not something pushed into a charging device
it's drawn a device will draw amps and it's a matter of how
much the supply can provide

the output voltage is 5V
the output amperage is 1 ah or 1000 mah
if you charge ur device with usb that mean 5V and 500 mah
this not enough this take 4 hours to charge ur device
but if u use 1 ah u can get 1 hours and a little

thanks
i'll try it out

[q] i'm battery murderer

So here's what happened:
I just got my hTC HD7, it had some juice alredy so I played around with it, when the battery got empty, I charged it. But my plug has a on/off switcher. I tripped over it and turned it off. This was the first time I charged the phone. What shall I do? I put the phone back in the box. Shall I get a new battery or charge the phone again? HHHEEELLLPPP!!!!

Just leave it to charge? Accidentally turning off the charger while the phone is charging doesn't do it any damage. I knock the plug loose all the time.

Tuskuno said:
So here's what happened:
I just got my hTC HD7, it had some juice alredy so I played around with it, when the battery got empty, I charged it. But my plug has a on/off switcher. I tripped over it and turned it off. This was the first time I charged the phone. What shall I do? I put the phone back in the box. Shall I get a new battery or charge the phone again? HHHEEELLLPPP!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A full charge for the first time can be interruped without issue, lithium-ion batterys do not carry a charge memory unlike older handsets where you did have to give a full charge from the outset.
To get the best life from your battery or spares try to do the following:
Try to keep the handset out of any heated environment (eg; a car on a sunny day with windows closed) as this could stress the battery and decrease the charge life.
Do not use another charger that could stress the battery with over voltage (keeping it plugged in after full charge with the regular charger will not affect the battery) the battery will degrage however if it were allowed to exceed the 4.20V/cell limit.
If storing a spare battery for an extended period of time it is recommended that the charge level is around 40% for optimum lifespan.
Hope this helps,
Creamy

was gonna start a new thread but this is a little related.
I am now seeing a good amount of 1500mAh batteries on ebay(link below), any thoughts?
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_trkpar...s&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=3&_sc=1
1600mAh: http://cgi.ebay.com/1600MAH-HIGH-CA...694?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e624427d6

creamy said:
Do not use another charger that could stress the battery with over voltage (keeping it plugged in after full charge with the regular charger will not affect the battery) the battery will degrage however if it were allowed to exceed the 4.20V/cell limit.
Hope this helps,
Creamy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first off, thanks for that helpful tip on saving batter power. i just have a question concerning the above mentioned (quote) do computer/laptop usb ports supply the same voltage as the charger that came along with the phone? will it hurt the stock battery if i always use the laptop usb port to charge my phone?
thanks in advance

dapoharoun said:
was gonna start a new thread but this is a little related.
I am now seeing a good amount of 1500mAh batteries on ebay(link below), any thoughts?
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_trkpar...s&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=3&_sc=1
1600mAh: http://cgi.ebay.com/1600MAH-HIGH-CA...694?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e624427d6
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i have this ONE adn THIS

moonshines said:
i have this ONE adn THIS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
any improvement from the original one that came with phone?
thanks

dapoharoun said:
any improvement from the original one that came with phone?
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the first one seems to be the same as the stock battery but the second will surely get you through a day without charging with all phone features on(data,wifi as in everything) or a whole day of heavy calling and sms. but if there are only a select features turned on or on stand by mode roughly it will last you two - two and a half.

moonshines said:
first off, thanks for that helpful tip on saving batter power. i just have a question concerning the above mentioned (quote) do computer/laptop usb ports supply the same voltage as the charger that came along with the phone? will it hurt the stock battery if i always use the laptop usb port to charge my phone?
thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seriously, c´mon guys, if the battery dies, just replace it, charge the battery how you want (partial charge is better for Li-based batteries than a full charge), also, HD7 stops charging the battery once it reaches maximum charge level, so if you keep it on charger, green LED will be on, but no charging is done, this is to prevent stressing the cells (cells are most stressed when on full charge and fully discharged). So no worries here .