Hi, I'm running Duttys Hybrid v2 with radio 1.58.16.27 and get excellent GPS performance. Acquisition in 5 seconds, most of the time.
Are there any other WM6.1 ROMs that perform as well? I've used a few 6.1s that are really fast, but have terrible GPS performance (I think it is because you really need one of the NIKI radios, but most aren't supporting them)
Just curious....
If you are having problems getting a gps fix with any rom, try gpsgate. I've used it and can get a fix on any rom within a few seconds.
I know this doesn't answer your question but if your only problem with a rom is the gps acquisition, this is your solution.
The gps signal is more radio related then rom related.
Mikulec said:
The gps signal is more radio related then rom related.
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True, but a lot of roms only work with very specific radios.
elypsar said:
...but a lot of roms only work with very specific radios.
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Click to collapse
Untrue, many roms are just packed with a certain radio, and only a few require a certain one.
I had been getting 20 second cold-start acquisitions back on winmo6.0. On 6.1, I'm lucky to get it in under a minute.
GPSGate does help, but it runs the GPS nonstop and drains the battery in short order.
Anyone find a radio that works better? Using GPSGate, or GPSTest isn't a good option for me. I may need to go hunting for good winmo6.0 cooked roms.
Yes I have searched before you ask.....
I have installed the stock official Radio ROM (1.65.16.25) as well as the later1.65.24.36 version and now the 1.71.09.01 version that has recently been posted, all of which seem to be very similar for GSM performance.
Now I am not convinced any of them actually do anything to the GPS receiver. I have had really quick GPS fixes with all of the Radios installed and I have also had really slow fixes. There doesn't seem to be any real consistency so I am not convinced upgrading the Radio ROM does anything with the GPS, I am sure it does with GSM, GPRS, 3G & HSDPA.
Does anyone have any technical knowledge as to what actually gets upgraded with the Radio ROM and which systems does it affect (i.e. Bluetooth, GPS etc)? Not just observations and perception?
Andy
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
DaveShaw said:
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
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Its funny but... I can say the same thing:
For me - technicaly radio shouldn't affect camera but it does thats the trick.
DaveShaw said:
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
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Click to collapse
Cheers Dave I hadn't seen that post by viper. To be honest that was the conclusion I was coming to. I am pretty sure the differences in GPS fix times is just peoples perception and atmospheric conditions at the time.
Andy
DaveShaw said:
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
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Click to collapse
After trying multiple radios I can say that radio definitely DOES somehow affect the GPS. How can be the different results from different radios explained then? How can I get the GPS fix with one radio in ~5 minutes and with another in ~15 seconds?
Strangely I have two Kaisers, at the moment both have identical everything and side by side the GPS fixes can vary greatly and it's not like one is always quicker than the other.
With regards to the camera being affected by the GPS? Again I think this is down to peoples warped perception.....
Andy
ADB100 said:
Strangely I have two Kaisers, at the moment both have identical everything and side by side the GPS fixes can vary greatly and it's not like one is always quicker than the other.
With regards to the camera being affected by the GPS? Again I think this is down to peoples warped perception.....
Andy
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Click to collapse
Back in the early kaiser days, if you had the wrong radio you had no sound and camera problems. (See the title of this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=349375)
Thanks
Dave
DaveShaw said:
Back in the early kaiser days, if you had the wrong radio you had no sound and camera problems. (See the title of this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=349375)
Thanks
Dave
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Yes Dave, I have previously read that thread, however I think the move from WM6 to WM6.1 required more fundamental changes - maybe memory locations affecting why the Radio ROM had to be a certain revision or later.
What got me onto this was all the replies about GPS (& camera) performance increases due to a new Radio ROM. With my experience I have simply not seen the monumental (as reported by some people) performance improvements (fix times) when I upgraded the Radio ROM
As I said I have two Kaisers side by side here, both with identical everything and the GPS fix times varies considerably between the two.
Andy
Interesting question - I was one of those who noticed real problems with my GPS after the original HTC update to 6.1, and had really poor performance for weeks. I then upgraded my radio to the new version HTC released as part of a revised version of the same ROM update (going from 1.65.16.25 to 1.65.17.56) and immediately noticed a definite improvement.
My GPS still isn't perfect, sometimes it takes a minute or so longer than I'd like to get a fix, but I can say that in the exact same situations, and over a few weeks testing with both versions, installing the newer radio definitely improved matters for me and achieved consistently better results. Of course there could be various other explanations, like the actual process of flashing a new radio somehow resetting/improving some unknown factor, but either way there's no doubt in my mind that the GPS is now more robust and reliable than it was previously, and the radio update really is the only variable in my case.
I know many may suspect some placebo effect, but for the record I did try a whole range of other supposed "cures" like running GPS Test, changing TomTom settings, hard resetting, flashing a different SPL etc etc, without imagining any improvement afterwards.
Sadly True
I have been flashing daily for 3 weeks now, sometimes multiple times daily, while on vacation to get the most reliable GPS signal for driving and I cannot upgrade to 6.1 roms because of the greatly slower fix times. I have tried ALL the newer radios, SPL's, fixes and tweaks, and the 1.27.XX radios still get the quickest fix and have the strongest reception. I have tried daily resets and gps cold fixes quite often to get an average time and heres my results. Newer 6.1 radios cold fix (first fix after hard-reset) around 3-5 minutes and older 6.0 radios cold fix around 2-3 minutes. Yes there were some short times and some longer times but that is the average of testing daily after flashing repeatedly. The difference is most noticeable when I use GPS Tool because it shows more details on the strength of the signal. The older 1.27.XX radio just seem to see more satellites right off the bat and the newer radios take 60-90 seconds before even seeing a single satellite. I am glad people are finally recognizing this as an important issue because I upgraded to this phone primarily for the internal GPS. Now that the kaiser driver problem is winding down maybe some great minds can work on this problem also.
To right radios affect GPS performance
myteematt said:
I cannot upgrade to 6.1 roms because of the greatly slower fix times. I have tried ALL the newer radios, SPL's, fixes and tweaks, and the 1.27.XX radios still get the quickest fix and have the strongest reception.
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It's true in this case about the oldies being goodies - I agree the GPS with WM 6.0 and those 1.27 series radios was ahem... miles better.
Why do I suspect that the 1.27 series Radios for WM 6.0 were provided to HTC by Qualcomm but they had to actually come up with their own for WM 6.1 - I may be wrong, it's just a hunch.
Now that the kaiser driver problem is winding down maybe some great minds can work on this problem also.
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Click to collapse
The interesting thing is that (I remember reading somewhere) aspects of GFX Acceleration can/could be coded into these MSM 7200 Radios so with both that and a once and for all GPS cure, the opportunities are immense for someone who knows what they're doing with Radio programming and development. Thats one reason why I was glad to see viperbjk has appeared here. There's no doubt about it as far as I can tell that Radios affect GPS performance and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
This is guess work, without that much understanding as to the way the device performs GPS operations (or any other low level machine operations), so feel free to shoot me down...
Could the Radio "operate" at different speeds, i.e. the 1.27 radios process instructions/operations much faster than the latest 6.1 ones?
Could parts of the radio be indirectly used when performing a GPS fix?
If so this would mean operations performed during GPS by the radio, slow down actual GPS operations?
Just an idea
Dave
We might be veering slightly out of focus here - because of course, if you compare 6.0 ROMs (and radios) with 6.1 ROMs (and radios) then there's a huge number of not necessarily radio-related factors that come into the mix, not least 6.1 itself, and HTC's implementation of it.
Notwithstanding the fact that it's impossible to use 1.27 radios with 6.1 and vice versa, it could easily be argued that a 1.27 radio would not improve GPS performance on a 6.1 ROM, and that a 1.65 radio would provide excellent GPS on a 6.0 ROM - it simply can't be proved either way.
What can be said, is that when I changed the radio - and only the radio - on the same 6.1 ROM, I found the GPS performance had improved. Not so much that it equalled 6.0 performance, but a significant improvement in any case, and enough to prove to me that (in answer to the topic) the radio ROM definitely does affect the GPS.
GPS Speed
Not sure if radio effect gps but I loaded the D3D driver and these did slow gps lock down by a lot, removed driver and gps lock went back to being instant.
Hope this help.
A no other variable example
Boinng said:
We might be veering slightly out of focus here - because of course, if you compare 6.0 ROMs (and radios) with 6.1 ROMs (and radios) then there's a huge number of not necessarily radio-related factors that come into the mix, not least 6.1 itself, and HTC's implementation of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you are right that this example isn't a very strong case because there are lots of other variables. Just like you though I made that Radio only upgrade from HTCs initial WM 6.1 release to their latest one with only a different radio and noticed the difference straight away. For those who doubt the effect of the Radio on GPS performance, If everything else is the same (and the ROM itself is the same) what else could explain the difference in performance under the same sorts of daily use in similar weather and locations? It's crystal clear to me.
Well, for me, it isn't crystal clear
First of all, I do not know much about HTC so far, I just learned to understand what's going on. But regarding the radio, there is no difference in what I've seen so far.
Ok .... some technical explanations :
1. Radio CAN affect GPS reception as far as AGPS is involved.
2. Radio does NOT affect the way GPS is recieved.
Why ?
AGPS (MSM Chipset) can be used for getting
a) position fixes via mobile towers
b) recieve GPS fixation database via GPRS/EDGE etc.
This can speed up first GPS reception lock a lot.
But the radio does not affect the reception of the GPS reciever (chipset by infineon or surf I suppose).
GPS is normally controlled by WM driver. It could be controlled by AMSS (radio) but that is VERY unlikely because changes always have to be resigned (takes a lot of time) and gps-drivers would have to be reprogrammed for MSM chipset (very unlikely).
It will take a deeper research to be sure.
Comparing the same condition parameters isn't precise enough.
To be sure that radio driver affects GPS reception, you would have to disable radio by itself, especially AGPS.
Conclusion :
Radio can speed up updating fixation database using AGPS.
Radio can also offer faster positioning than GPS using AGPS, although not as accurate.
But as long as a surf/infineon gps chipset is used, there is no way radio speeds up or influences GPS reception in any way
Hope this answers some questions.
Cya,
Viper BJK
It's a Qualcomm chip that drives the GPS. And who knows what a Radio does, what underlying functionality it facilitates. At this piont, I take it you were just guessing, viper?
Good guesses as anyone I guess, just wanted to correct you on the GPS. I wish it were a SirfStar III chip.
viperbjk said:
But as long as a surf/infineon gps chipset is used, there is no way radio speeds up or influences GPS reception in any way
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Click to collapse
It isn't. The GPS baseband processing takes place in the main Qualcomm chip as shown by their product sheet. So to me it seems logical that the low level GPS processing code would be part of the radio firmware, therefore explaining the performance changes as they mess up with the code and possibly change their algorithms or simply the priority of the tasks the radio chip has to execute. Might be a power consumption issue too, as at least under the WM6 radios the current draw from the GPS is really significant, much higher than a usual dedicated (SiRF, MTK,...) chipset. Maybe they changed the SW under 6.1 to draw less power, leading to lower performance...
Also, as AGPS often messes up things (many people not being able to use the GPS anymore with it on), I'm pretty sure that all the users who reported different performance had it off anyway.
It could be controlled by AMSS (radio) but that is VERY unlikely because changes always have to be resigned (takes a lot of time) and gps-drivers would have to be reprogrammed for MSM chipset (very unlikely).
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Click to collapse
To me the GPS code is as said in the radio firmware, and the actual HW drivers (given by Qualcomm) are compiled in it as well. Then, the GPS is presented to WM as a simple COM port i.e transparently so no particular driver is needed for WM itself. So the only part that would change when a change of behavior is required would be.. the radio firmware, confirming users' experiences.
Personally I still run WM6, and always get between 15 and 30sec fix times.
Small update :
For best evaluation of Sirf chipsets, I recommend
http://w5.nuinternet.com/s660100031/SirfTech.htm
I'll see if I can find anything similiar for Infineon chipsets.
Learning curve
viperbjk said:
Well, for me, it isn't crystal clear
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Don't get me wrong, other programming aspects about this aren't clear to me, just the fact that the Radio includes driver code for the GPS and has a direct effect on GPS performance. As already mentioned by others the GPS hardware is within the Qualcomm chipset and is not provided by separate hardware.
First of all, I do not know much about HTC so far, I just learned to understand what's going on. But regarding the radio, there is no difference in what I've seen so far.
Ok .... some technical explanations :
1. Radio CAN affect GPS reception as far as AGPS is involved.
2. Radio does NOT affect the way GPS is recieved.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I've never used AGPS (the native HTC ROMS without additional tweaking software have this turned off by default), I have no experience to report in this regard. I'm unsure what 2. actually means. I'm sure the statement "Radio does NOT affect GPS reception" would be incorrect though as in my experience radio changes alone can make big differences to how Tomtom and Google Maps behave. If the radio has different priorities or reduces the current/power available for GPS reception then it seems clear to me that this will alter the strength of GPS reception although maybe not the 'way it's received'. I see reducing the current available for the GPS hardware as a bit like reducing the diameter of a cars fuel line - it may end up being counterproductive. As long as the programming code results in efficient execution of GPS functioning, I'm happy for it to get all the power it needs. It's only if power is used to compensate for inefficient execution of GPS functioning that I'd have reservations about power consumption.
Why ?
AGPS (MSM Chipset) can be used for getting
a) position fixes via mobile towers
b) recieve GPS fixation database via GPRS/EDGE etc.
This can speed up first GPS reception lock a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First GPS lock times were fine with my TyTN II in its original form and that didn't use AGPS. I'd be quite happy just to restore that level of performance again without relying on AGPS at all. I have started my TyTN IIs GPS up in some far flung locations where there was no phone reception at all and under WM 6.0, even then I had cold lock times of about 25 seconds as long as there was a clear view of the sky.
But the radio does not affect the reception of the GPS reciever (chipset by infineon or surf I suppose).
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Click to collapse
Maybe not when the GPS reception is dealt with by separate hardware but the TyTN IIs GPS is integrated into its MSM 720x chipset. Regarding your latest post, I doubt GPS functionality is part of the ATI Imageon type functionality in the MSM720x chipset, it'll be separate areas of the silicon that handle this (I presume thats what you're referring to with reference to infineon).
I look forward to what you may accomplish viperbjk when you become familiar with this hardware. The opportunities for someone who understands these chipsets and associated radio programming inside and out are huge.
Hello everyone,
i have solved all my problems with my htc diamond gps lag using Tomtom 7. Now the point on the map while moving is perfect and in time. Just upgraded the rom with the one of DIB and the radio from 25.95 to 25.08 version. (also the 3g signal is better now!).
Well.. using iGO 8 (with 3d buildings, real terrain, poi and everything) the gps lag is still big. At least 50/75 meters!!! has someone solved it? I tried to setup the features of the software as low as possible... but.. nothing changed. any help is appreciate!
Thanks!
excuse me, but what is "DIB" and what radio version is 25.95 or 25.08?
dib is an italian rom for htc touch diamond and 08 is the radio version with good umts and gps signal.
Can anyone else confirm if the radio upgrade fixes the GPS lag problem for Navigation software?
I never suffered gps lag or at max very few, just 1/2 seconds (I think anyway it is normal), after 2 hours, neither wait to test the phone, I cook the newest rom & the newest radio (at that time was 07), right now I have BS14 ver (previuos) was with 08 and ALL has always worked, so I really don't know if with old radios there is that (in)famous lag... because I never had older radios than 07
bye,
davide
thx, did not know DIB yet.
I just noticed my Tom Tom only tracks 8 satellites anymore, and I read somewhere else that a guy thought that the number of satellites the phone tracks is a function of what radio you are running.
ie: the newer radios don't track 12 satellites anymore.
Why do I care? Well, I've found that I can't get a fix as well in low-signal areas as I used to be able to.
I'm running Radio 1.79.09.01.
Newer radios intending to reduce battery consumption
over2land said:
I just noticed my Tom Tom only tracks 8 satellites anymore, and I read somewhere else that a guy thought that the number of satellites the phone tracks is a function of what radio you are running.
ie: the newer radios don't track 12 satellites anymore.
Why do I care? Well, I've found that I can't get a fix as well in low-signal areas as I used to be able to.
I'm running Radio 1.79.09.01.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where'd you get that radio from, the latest I've seen are 1.70.xx.xx and the 1.71 eMO radio? It seems as if over time HTC has reduced the power supplied to the GPS circuitry with newer radios. In many locations (such as where I live) this is false economy because then the GPS has to work overtime to actually get a lock and maintain it, often with sluggish/intermittent results. I think their intention was to extend battery life but it's a bit like saying we'll introduce a fuel flow limiting valve onto a car to improve economy. It may work OK in ideal situations such as on the flat but give it a hard work scenario like a hill (or areas of the planet with lower overhead Navstar satellite density) and it just falls apart not getting enough fuel (or in this case power) to do it's work properly. I've tried 1.71 and 1.70 series radios with HTC original WWE WM 6.1 ROMs and found the GPS performance poor compared to the 1.27.12.32 version I currently use on my WM 6.0 ROM. Unfortunately this radio won't work with a WM 6.1 ROM so you have a choice to make.
My bad, that was a typo... I'm running 1.71.09.01 for a radio.
Thanks for the info. I've been thinking all along that they have been dialing back on actual talking capabilities of the radio in favor of internet/data capabilities. I remember my phone holding a call much better when I got it than it does now. That is, I drive a lot and I'm on the phone a lot, and this phone drops calls all over the place where it didn't used to.
Its come to the point that I use my MPx for important phone calls while on the road, because it doesn't drop nearly as much as the Kaiser does, and it gets better signal for longer in remote areas. Kinda sad that a 5-year old phone is a better phone than what we've got now.
Anyone have any other info on the changes in radios as it effects satellite, data, and phone reception? Obviously I started this mainly about the satellite reception, but now I'm curious.
over2land said:
My bad, that was a typo... I'm running 1.71.09.01 for a radio.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And there I was thinking you have a secret underground radio development lab all of your own
Thanks for the info. I've been thinking all along that they have been dialing back on actual talking capabilities of the radio in favor of internet/data capabilities.
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Click to collapse
Glad that my points have been helpful although I've gotta say my experience doesn't substantiate your claims regarding voice call reliability - it only relates to GPS performance changes. It wouldn't surprise me if they'd cut back on general radio transmission power because that seemed their intention as far as GPS was concerned. It's really not something I can comment on as voice calls/reception was acceptable for me with the WM 6.1 ROMs as well as my current WM 6.0 setup.
I wish I had my own underground radio lab! I'd crank up GPS, voice, and data, battery be damned.
I hear ya on the GPS stuff... I went searching and didn't find anyone else asking the same kind of questions though.