Database Develop

An Open Letter to Microsoft - Let us develop WM6 please

Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1

cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.

Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.

Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.

What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!

!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.

My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.

I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?

pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.

jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!

pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.

texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.

Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.

rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.

I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.

It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??

Rom-on-demand

Honorable Chefs - distinguished consumers.
www.romondemand.com/org has been registered as a strategic decision elaborating the feasibility of providing personalized Rom's to end-consumers.
The idea generated by reading to many times "can you include this' - "can you remove that" etc
So, why not offering personalized - tailor made ROM's ? Customer creates a wish-list on the webpage - available Chef -in his domain of expertise receives the order - constructs - customer downloads - Chef follow-up. Chef gets paid - happy customer with own ROM.
Simply presented, I know, but got to start somewhere no?
Would like to know the opinion of the Chef's on this idea. PM me to elaborate further on together if this is tempting or not.
And whoever thinks that a personalized ROM is crap is free to flame - punch me. I own the idea. Stupid or clever as it is.

good idea but i don't think most of the chefs here cook roms as a profession. Most of them simply do it because its a hobby and invest their time into it. If they wanted money i am sure they wouldn't post their hardwork here for others to steal

nothing wrong with that I guess. Use your skills to pay the bills

I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!

bengalih said:
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for a legal stance you'd technically be selling your service rather than the rom itself seeing it is a customization.

CUSTEL said:
As for a legal stance you'd technically be selling your service rather than the rom itself seeing it is a customization.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes but you'd still be breaking HTC/AT&T/MS property rights. Again, it's a grey area...just like all of us here freely distributing them.
I don't think selling them is any worse (since you would be selling the service), but it's stil grey... and anytime money is involved it can be higher profile.

Custel , you made some valid points, though it would not be the intention to steel without authorization already cooked ROM's.
I would either see it as a Chefs-united platform where stock ROM's are used and tweaked - within the legal bounderies.
No, a MS VC would not be added for free and if so, royalties would be paid to MS.
Same counts for applic's such as coreplayer etc.
A matter of how the negotiations will go with those guys.
Purpose is for them to understand that we can integrate officialy their soft at a minimum price avoiding that plenty d-load them somewhere onon-officialy.
I do not see loosers within this set-up (yet)

No misunderstanding !
Benghali wrote : 2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
I would not even touch these ROMS and they will even not be on the website.
It would be the Chef's whom are jumping in which start with a Vanilla base and customize the ROM on demand (Customer can provide desired wallpaper - list a wich of soft - tweaks - cabs etc whatever his level of PDA understanding is)
So, no, the ROM's made by the CHEF's would not be simply refurbished.
(as this never ever happens among the chefs neither )

ceevee369 said:
Custel , you made some valid points, though it would not be the intention to steel without authorization already cooked ROM's.
I would either see it as a Chefs-united platform where stock ROM's are used and tweaked - within the legal bounderies.
No, a MS VC would not be added for free and if so, royalties would be paid to MS.
Same counts for applic's such as coreplayer etc.
A matter of how the negotiations will go with those guys.
Purpose is for them to understand that we can integrate officialy their soft at a minimum price avoiding that plenty d-load them somewhere onon-officialy.
I do not see loosers within this set-up (yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just pointing out that I made all those original posts, Custel was just quoting me. But, more importantly...you talk about doing thing within "legal boundaries."
There are no legal boundaries for cooking ROMs. It is against all HTC/MS/AT&T licensing agreements to decompile, modify, and redistribute their code (and for profit nonetheless!).
You seem to be approaching this as a legitimate business venture where you will pay royalties to various manufacturers. I don't want to put down your idea, but unless you have some major connections at some very big corporations, this idea would not even be entertained.
Anything you do would pretty much be regulated fully by yourself. MS isn't going to license VC command to you. Other smaller software companies may play along, but to be honest such a licensing structure for an endeavor like this probably is overkill.
You also seem to be thinking of not just making these ROMs yourself, but brokering it out to multiple chefs who will be taking orders. Again, it could work, but is ambitious to lay out a structure like this.
Again, I like your idea...I just don't know how realistic it is based on the amount of transactions you would be performing. And, please remember if you actually achieved such a structure, your site and services would surely be put out there and would draw attention from the major vendors who would probably investigate and send you cease-and-desists. Remember, the whole act of cooking and distibuting copyrighted ROMs is not withing the agreements of the vendors.

bengalih said:
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not too mention that Dutty, & a few other chef's remove all the RGU's. So unless the creator is the one helping you, prepare to spend a lot of time digging out the defunct dsm files from the rom.
I think it's an okay, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people that are clueless about this stuff & still want things there way, but you hardly own the idea. The idea is what gave birth to this forum, & if you have been here for any length of time you'll see that people here have in some instances paid others to make or customize roms for them in the past.
I also don't think you'll get away with charging much for your "Service", as the hard work, all the coding, was already done by MS & HTC. Thinking that you'd get MS to sanction this is wishful. Remember, MS at one point stopped XDA from distributing their roms, & one of the big reasons it turns it's head today is because of all of the free bug fixes & beta testing they get out of this community. If your just selling roms, ahem...services, then you'll likely not be any source of needed data for them & there will be no reason to let you keep going at it.
Customizing already customized roms gets even grayer, because now you have artwork & custom icons that were created by members specifically for certain chefs, i.e. Collinssc frequently does custom art for Dutty's roms.
Again, there is a lot of stuff to work thru here, & several are pretty serious, such as licensing that already prohibits distribution, not to mention all of the required technical support & while you can use all the disclaimers in the world, that won't stop someone from sueing you when their device bricks. Take a look at all of the cooked rom threads, some have thousands upon thousands of little bug complaints, that adds up to a lot of hours when you have made a lot of individual changes to a rom & it's not always the chef that comes up with the solution for the bugs. I personally never used a Dutty rom because I couldn't use MediaNet & BBC at the same time, but I wanted to, so I disected several ROM's & found the issue & the fix. Same with certain roms & TCPMP. Multiply these issues by the number of each user personal taste in apps &, well you see my point.
I'm a red blooded capitalist thru & thru, so I say go for it, but there'll be no easy money made here. It'll take a lot of time to get any coordinated effort involving so many variables off & running. Good luck.

It's a shame this idea has been shot down already because I wanted to know how much it was going to cost. Hell, I have three other friends that would be interested in buying a ROM. Sometimes, people would rather hire someone with experience.

bennyj71 said:
It's a shame this idea has been shot down already because I wanted to know how much it was going to cost. Hell, I have three other friends that would be interested in buying a ROM. Sometimes, people would rather hire someone with experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the idea still lives but needs further investigation and I want to know the Chef's view on this first.
Will come back with more news.
i already found Taiwanese web builder understanding the complexity but thinks it is more than feasible to build a platform fitting the needs.

Paid apps theory..

The reason that google hasn't dished out the paid apps like planned was most likely because 1 person could pay for it, download it and then spread it around to the rest of the android community.
I mean how could they prevent us (especially with root) from doing that.
I think that either they are gonna put a complete end to root (if possible),
or they're gonna completely redo the whole market and how it works.
Maybe make it so apps are originally apks but when installed they leave behind the installer and can not be installed again by finding the apk in the internal storage.
What are your thoughts?

Could be and what you said is being discussed in another part of dream forum. Tell you the truth I've been all over the internet constantly looking for paid apps and there is not much out there. Guitar hero said it was coming to android in jan and still isnt out yet! If they do that im sure someone will find a way around that as well though haha

stats555 said:
Could be and what you said is being discussed in another part of dream forum. Tell you the truth I've been all over the internet constantly looking for paid apps and there is not much out there. Guitar hero said it was coming to android in jan and still isnt out yet! If they do that im sure someone will find a way around that as well though haha
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=478445

Pay or not to pay for an application have been discussed for year and I believe there are people out there are willing to pay for the application they need, even the warez version is just some clicks away from them. You see how PC's software industry lives up? I cant find any software that cant be cracked. It's just a matter of time if someone is really wanna do that.
So it should be the same case here.

While I think there will be a common security thread in the Market I think developers need to also enact their own security to prevent priates. If there is one security procedure then it only takes one crack to take everything.

They will do like a DRM on the apks kind of like the iphone has now.

Honestly, anything they would do would probably be wasted time.
The iPhone anti-piracy mechanisms have been defeated recently, and whatever Google would put forth would likely be taken apart. There's just no way to prevent it, same as the problems that other platform developers have experienced.
There will always be people who pay for their apps, and there will always be people who pirate them, and very little can be done to prevent that.

It'll probably be something like every time an app is bought it is signed with an encrypted code that is given to each individual phone and coupled with a single application.
However, would each app have a different algorithm or would it all be one big pot.
Either way..
That would work rather well
Unfortunately for me though.
I am a pirate mateyys ARRrrrrr
haitiankid4lyf.
With as little offense as possible. You understand the stupidity of your screenname right? You're a kid? For lyf?
Peter pan or somethin?

topdnbass said:
It'll probably be something like every time an app is bought it is
haitiankid4lyf.
With as little offense as possible. You understand the stupidity of your screenname right? You're a kid? For lyf?
Peter pan or somethin?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
XD That made me laugh.

I agree. Remember though, there's not THAT many rooted users out there. I think that as long as the apps are priced reasonably, they'll be fine.

Why this GREAT forum just can not help those GREAT freeware makers a better life?

Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?

First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.

Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.

Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.

Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.​
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!

Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.

Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.

TY TN II review

After over one year of use I just wanted to write few lines about my impression of this PDA.
I travel a lot and I thought that a PDA could be helpful to keep in touch and do the IT chores while on the go. I was very wrong and I regret having bought the damn thing. The device tries to do many things but none of them well. In retrospective it sounded too good to be true.
At the beginning I did make a point of using it to its best potential but after a while I got so tired and annoyed with it that I have used it mostly like just any other phone.
I thought I would give myself some time to get accustomed to the complexity of the device before jumping to conclusions.
Over one year later and I still find it incredibly cumbersome and totally user unfriendly. The guys at HTC should go to Apple to get a crush course in making something user friendly.
Here are just a few things. The list is way longer but I would have to go back and try most functions to recall all the flaws.
- It's super slow. I am no super fast teenage geek but I am always waiting for the stupid thing to react to any command I give. It is very annoying and it's like stepping back to the time of the 286 PCs. The speed is archaic.
- The buttons controls are very difficult to feel with the touch and are very cumbersome to operate. Especially the side ones. I am sure that even blind people would have problems using them.
- Windows mobile is as bad as Microsoft gets. It's slow, counter intuitive, user unfriendly. Early Vista at the power of ten!
- Window media player is a joke. I have been using the PDA to listen to music in the car and it's a miracle I have not crashed while trying to select some music yet.
- The touch screen is also very bad and difficult to use. A lot of the commands are way too small for a man's finger. It is very difficult to select something on first attempt.
- To open a running program is difficult. One has to press the top right menu and than select what is running by touch only. The bar is about 4 mm high and it's very difficult to select using one hand. One cannot select by using the scroll bar and button.
- During phone calls the screen goes out quickly and to get it back one has to look for the hidden button on the side, very bad.
- Voice recognition sucks. Since the controls are so bad I now use the voice recognition most times. It's rare that the damn machine get it right on first attempt. Repeating the name twice helps but not always. I end up having to raise the tone as if I was yelling. Very embarrassing in public.
- The GPS take a long time to get the satellites even when the data has been updated.
- Active sync is a disaster. The guy that design it should be shot. I have given up on it altogether. I had to buy small software to access the data in the PDA and memory card.
Active sync could just not do the most elementary operation in a simple and straightforward way.
- The booting upon starting is the longest I have ever seen. Switching it off is also a chore
The list goes on but I am getting annoyed just to think about it all. This is the first and last product I’ll ever buy from HTC. Unless you are a geek that gets pleasure messing with IT devices do not buy it. Its use will take an unhealthy amount of your time. It will not help your life, it will waste a lot of your time and annoy you in the process.
Stay away from it!

My phone works perfect, it is a delight to use, does everything you mentioned above, great to reasonably well. It is fast, user friendly and I can't wait until I can upgrade to the TP II
My advice to you, since you are clueless, get the ipod that makes phone calls, it is built and over marketed especially for clueless people.

Agreed with denco7,
My HTC Kaiser (TyTn II) is also working fine. It is a great QVGA 2.8" phone!
ActiveSync works and simply works, I have never got any issue like you described.
GPS works, although TT7 is slower than TT6, but thats TT problem, not the phone.
I found Opera Mini works briliant with the D-Pad, which is much better than D-Pad-less phone. You know, press button to zoom, back to unzoom, scroll with D-Pad ... all one handed.
Screen goes out during call? Get a clue You knew this website, it should be the best resource.
My suggestion, dont use PDA Because it might be too complicated for you.

I like my TyTN II.
Maybe some of the things you think missed, you could configure them another way to get the most of the device. I think I'll never finish to get more and more from it. And I exhausted a P4350 before changing to the Kaiser.

denco7 said:
My phone works perfect, it is a delight to use, does everything you mentioned above, great to reasonably well. It is fast, user friendly and I can't wait until I can upgrade to the TP II
My advice to you, since you are clueless, get the ipod that makes phone calls, it is built and over marketed especially for clueless people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The PDA was also used by a friend of mine who is a blackberry user and talented software developer with many years of experience in IT. He did notice the same things and at times the thing did drive him crazy too.
My friend is also a guy that has switched to Linux long time ago. I have been too lazy and suffered in silence with MS crap but hopefully I will find the time to invest in changing for the better.
My friend impressions made me realize that I am not clueless as you say. In fact being a marine engineer I have dealt with equipment of all sorts for many years.
The PDA is designed by geeks for geeks. It is not a product for normal people. Anybody that buys this device has to spend many, many hours tying to sort it out and make it work better. I did that at the beginning and downloaded many fixes and upgrades. The very existance of this website and the number of people that use it is an indication that this PDA is not a product you switch on and just use. Very far from it.
I think you are like many people that after spending all that money don't want to admit that they got a lemon. The fact that you want to upgrade is a clear indication that you are not that satisfied with the gadget.
Just pick it up and slide the keyboard slightly. It takes 4.8 sec for the display to go from vertical to horizontal and back. If that is fast then you must be very slow.
Cheers

Yeah I also suggest you get an iphone. It's for people just like you.
No customization and power-user options, but your grandma can figure out the basic PDA functions.
TytnII has been great for me.

This is a negative and boring thread from the op! With some effort you can do a lot with the tytn2 as well as the tytn1! Very good devices!

I very much enjoy my Kaiser. I had some of the problems the OP had when I was running the AT&T stock ROM (with bloatware), but all that changed when I started using custom ROMs. The Kaiser is actually a very capable device, the only reason it underperforms is because it's hardware isn't fully taken advantage of (but even that's improving now). Once I flash a ROM and spend a whole 10 minutes customizing the device to how I like it, it runs like a dream.
OP: As the others have said in this thread, if you aren't willing to tweak the device, and customize the living crap out of it in order to get a faster Kaiser, maybe a feature phone or iPhone would be more suitable for you.
Dave
PS: (I have a 286, and it runs fine!)

I have a tytn, tytnII, titan, touch pro and a fuze. I must admit that every one of these devices were less than spectacular in the as-shipped form from the service provider. Thats why I found this site so I could make them all perform up to their hype.
Every one of them, thanks to the wonderful developers here, will outperform an iphown now. I have had very little problems like the OP described that were not simply fixed by changing a setting here or there. I like my tilt better than any of the others I have had (except the fuze.)

My 8525 (TyTn) works great and it has less power than the TyTnII. You can not get the most out of the phone unless you get rid of the stock OS. That's why XDA Devs rocks. Once the stock OS is gone - the phones rock!

mikechannon said:
This is the Kaiser forum. A forum dedicated to supporting Kaiser owners and providing answers to specific problems.
I'm sure you can see that this is not a supportive thread for TyTn II owners.
I'm not actually sure that expressing views about strongly disliking HTC and WM is a wise idea on a website dedicated to both those things.
However, and lest I be accused of wielding evil Moderator censorship powers, I will move this thread to off-topic. There it will take up its place accumulating wise and sensible contributions to the debate.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Mike,
It's not about being supportive or not. It's about giving a broad range of perspective so if tomorrow somebody wants to buy the device they can search for information and have a better idea of what they are getting into.
Unfortunately at the time I bought mine the information available was somehow biased towards people who think that is ok to spend 750 $ for a gadget that right away needs all sorts of non OEM twicks and upgrades to perform close to its marketing claims.
In any sector or product if one buys at the very top end of the price range should expect to end up with something that works well right away.
The TY TN II does not. HTC is a company with great potential but it should take a lot longer before releasing a product such this.
I belive that censorship does not help the people behind this site that are happy with the product either. My post is not off topic. They are first hand comments on the device from somebody that owns one, just like anybody else here.
Because of lack of unbiased information many people like me or even less prepared to mess with the device will buy it and up here nagging everyone else for help. Even for the silliest problems.
Let's be clear. This is a very niche product, HTC marketing pitch is misleading. It is not a piece of consumer goods suitable for the majority of people. It has to become a pet project for the buyer otherwise will not delivery to it's full potential.
I would suggest you put this thread in a very accessible location.
I am sorry if have hurt any TY TN II lovers
I suspect that a lot of people here see the device like their own baby.
Cheers

gogol said:
Agreed with denco7,
My HTC Kaiser (TyTn II) is also working fine. It is a great QVGA 2.8" phone!
ActiveSync works and simply works, I have never got any issue like you described.
GPS works, although TT7 is slower than TT6, but thats TT problem, not the phone.
I found Opera Mini works briliant with the D-Pad, which is much better than D-Pad-less phone. You know, press button to zoom, back to unzoom, scroll with D-Pad ... all one handed.
Screen goes out during call? Get a clue You knew this website, it should be the best resource.
My suggestion, dont use PDA Because it might be too complicated for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want to get this thread to go on and on. The purpose of my post is to just offer an alternative perspective on the PDA. Without it, anybody that stumbles on this site may be lead to think that it is a great PDA. Indeed it is for people that are willing, knowledgeable and happy to mess with it. I don't think that the majority of people fit that category.
I believe that most people when they spend top dollars expect to buy a piece of equipment that works at its best right out of the box. After all PDAs and many other gadgets should make life easier not more complicated. That is something often forgotten.
Your appreciation of Active Sync sounds very odd to my engineering mind always appreciating things that work in a simple and logic manner. I'll comment on this one because is one of my "favorite" about the device and MS.
How can Active Sync be good if you have to install it in every computer you have to exchange data with (actually you can only install it on 2 PCs only!!). That to me is totally counter intuitive, user unfriendly and simply stupid. I should be able to roam the world and exchange data with any PC and Macs by just plugging in without having to install anything. That's what happens with most other gadgets cameras etc. How is it possible that a 750 $ device cannot do such elementary thing out of the box. It's simply unbelievable and as I said very odd to see that there are so many people that are totally fine with it and actually like the feature.
The TY TN II and any top end PDAs also cater to people like me that travel extensively and to different countries. How such elementary need to exchange data in a simple way can be overseen???
If I had know that such basic feature was not available I would never have bought the thing. The problem is that this any many other points about the device are some kind of dirty secrets that are not been told and were not available when I was about to buy the device.
Luckily I found Softick Card Export and solved the problem of accessing the PDA with any computer as if it was an external hard drive. I recommend it.
But again, after I spent 750 $ I should not have to buy and install non OEM software to download a file to a friend computer.
Come on guys, MS does not even pay you! You are paying them!

mikechannon said:
Well yes in the interests of allowing different points of view, the thread has been kept, we are all entitled to a reasoned point of view.
However IMHO it is off-topic in the sense that keeping it in the TyTn II forum which is specifically to provide help for those who already have a TyTn II would be inappropriate. I did consider the General forum, but againthat is for those who already own an HTC phone and are seeking support perhaps for Windows Mobile issues.
So by elimination if nothing else "off-topic" was the choice. Those searching the likes of Google will still find it regardless of the forum it's in.
I still have my doubts that this is appropriate as a forum to choose for such a review/feedback because it can encourage flaming type posts. I'm sure you know what I mean - would you go to a Rolls Royce owners site to express your views about why they are not good cars? Maybe you would, but I think it would be better to choose a site that reviews different brands, rather than telling folk who already own the product that you think what they have is no good. I doubt folk trying to choose a product would consider a dedicated site to be an unbiased place to gather reliable reviews.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mike,
I happen to be one of those Rolls Royce owners (I wish!) that's why I think I should have a say on this site. My views are counter current that's all. I don't feel undermined here despite being a totally "visible minority". If people were to get inflamed about it then there is always the almighty moderator that should straighten things out.
I still think my post does not belong to the off topic section because I think the view of somebody like myself can be beneficial to the majority here. I know that this could be difficult to acknowledge for somebody.
On the wake of the recent purchase and proud of my shiny new device, in the first 6 months of ownership of the Ty TN II I was like most other people here, reading, downloading, twicking. After a while I realized that what I was doing was going against the very reason I bought the device in the first place which was make my life easier and make me save time.
At that point and tired of the constant work that the machine demanded I gave up on it. I bought a new laptop and used the PDA like a phone and navigator only.
If I had found posts like mine before I would have made my natural progression earlier and I would have saved myself a lot of time and headaches.
I am sure there are other people in that position and they should be able to benefit from opinions like mine without having to Google them. To the hard core PDArers it should make no difference. I understand there is a pleasure in molding a machine to you own specification. I respect that; years ago I would have kept on doing it.
I hope you understand my plea and thanks for your work. I and many others did benefit from this great site.
Unfortunately I don't think that I can ethically contribute to the HTC or MS cause in a positive way. The fact that they created the need for a site like this is totally unacceptable.
I believe that it is wrong to offer volunteer work to greedy corporations that totally don't give a damn about their customer base. HTC and MS are clear examples.
I wish the talented work of people like XDA-developers will go towards developing software and service for no profit organizations and not to patch up the shortcomings and disservice of these corporations.
Bill Gates has become a philanthropist to wash his sins. I hope his example will be followed by all the other big fish in the corporate world.
Cheers

olliric said:
I don't want to get this thread to go on and on. The purpose of my post is to just offer an alternative perspective on the PDA. Without it, anybody that stumbles on this site may be lead to think that it is a great PDA. Indeed it is for people that are willing, knowledgeable and happy to mess with it. I don't think that the majority of people fit that category.
I believe that most people when they spend top dollars expect to buy a piece of equipment that works at its best right out of the box. After all PDAs and many other gadgets should make life easier not more complicated. That is something often forgotten.
Your appreciation of Active Sync sounds very odd to my engineering mind always appreciating things that work in a simple and logic manner. I'll comment on this one because is one of my "favorite" about the device and MS.
How can Active Sync be good if you have to install it in every computer you have to exchange data with (actually you can only install it on 2 PCs only!!). That to me is totally counter intuitive, user unfriendly and simply stupid. I should be able to roam the world and exchange data with any PC and Macs by just plugging in without having to install anything. That's what happens with most other gadgets cameras etc. How is it possible that a 750 $ device cannot do such elementary thing out of the box. It's simply unbelievable and as I said very odd to see that there are so many people that are totally fine with it and actually like the feature.
The TY TN II and any top end PDAs also cater to people like me that travel extensively and to different countries. How such elementary need to exchange data in a simple way can be overseen???
If I had know that such basic feature was not available I would never have bought the thing. The problem is that this any many other points about the device are some kind of dirty secrets that are not been told and were not available when I was about to buy the device.
Luckily I found Softick Card Export and solved the problem of accessing the PDA with any computer as if it was an external hard drive. I recommend it.
But again, after I spent 750 $ I should not have to buy and install non OEM software to download a file to a friend computer.
Come on guys, MS does not even pay you! You are paying them!
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So, you're saying that with any other phone you can just connect it to a PC and transfer all the data on the fly? Well, with nokias you can't, you have to install the huge nokia pc suite. At least active sync is only a few megs, so even with a slow connection you can still get it fast. And, i still think active sync is the best or at least the simplest way to synchronize contacts / appointments / notes and emails.
If you want to exchange files i would advice to forget active sync, use a micro sd card reader, it's much simpler and faster.
About your first post, i understand your frustration, but everyone here will tell you, including me, that any windows mobile device is way more powerfull than any nokia, iphone or blackberry. But even with those you still have to know how to use them.

jaugusto said:
So, you're saying that with any other phone you can just connect it to a PC and transfer all the data on the fly? Well, with nokias you can't, you have to install the huge nokia pc suite. At least active sync is only a few megs, so even with a slow connection you can still get it fast. And, i still think active sync is the best or at least the simplest way to synchronize contacts / appointments / notes and emails.
If you want to exchange files i would advice to forget active sync, use a micro sd card reader, it's much simpler and faster.
About your first post, i understand your frustration, but everyone here will tell you, including me, that any windows mobile device is way more powerfull than any nokia, iphone or blackberry. But even with those you still have to know how to use them.
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In this day and age am I too demanding to expect to be able to read and exchange data with my PDA and any computer? The fact that the very little Softick card export software does it very easily shows that I am not asking much. There are no technological hurdles whatsoever. Why having to complicate things, switching off the device, pulling cards on and off, maybe damaging something in the process.
It is one of the features I needed right away and I don't think I am alone there. It should not take a great deal of imagination or creativity to figure this out. What are the HTC or MS designers been thinking?
I just don't see any good reasons for the lack of such basic features. The only reason I see is corporate greed that calls for gadgets and software that don't quite work so people keep on buying new ones.
We are a bunch of consumer cows being milked, I am afraid that's the sad reality.
The fact the the potential of a MS based PDA is greater than the competition does not make me feel any better. However, thanks for trying to help and for the kind words

olliric said:
In this day and age am I too demanding to expect to be able to read and exchange data with my PDA and any computer? The fact that the very little Softick card export software does it very easily shows that I am not asking much. There are no technological hurdles whatsoever. Why having to complicate things, switching off the device, pulling cards on and off, maybe damaging something in the process.
It is one of the features I needed right away and I don't think I am alone there. It should not take a great deal of imagination or creativity to figure this out. What are the HTC or MS designers been thinking?
I just don't see any good reasons for the lack of such basic features. The only reason I see is corporate greed that calls for gadgets and software that don't quite work so people keep on buying new ones.
We are a bunch of consumer cows being milked, I am afraid that's the sad reality.
The fact the the potential of a MS based PDA is greater than the competition does not make me feel any better. However, thanks for trying to help and for the kind words
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I prefer to think that technology is being developed, rather than big companies are just "milking us". Every new product is an evolution from something done before, not only with technology, but with everything manufactured in the capitalist markets we live in.
Basically, i think we have two choices: ware out our equipment untill we really need a new one (in case of a mobile phone for me i would say that it's about 3 years), or sell our semi-new equipment and buy a new one every year or so. I usually choose the first one, but i'm not always sure that it is the cheapest.
About speed, I know that the tytn II's are far from being the best phone HTC made, heck, my old magician (qtek s110) was way faster. But it didn't have to deal with gps, wifi, 3G, HSDPA, hardware keyboard, etc. They're only three years apart from each other, and look at the differences!
I actually agree with you that the kaiser is slow for a 2007 PDA, but it can do a lot. So, like everyone else in this forum, i've been reading, and trying, and failing, and trying again. The best Rom i've tried is shifu's v8, i do like it a lot. And the advantage of WM is that you can really do everything you want to change the look and the way you interact with your phone, and there are thousands of programs to do whatever you need your phone to do.
There's so many software out there, that it is hard to get to the best one for you. Some prefer SPB Mobile Shell3, i prefer Manila 2D. There's also the new Titanium in WM 6.5, PointUI, Throttle Launcher.... I compare this situation to the photography industry: there are hundreds of camera models, most of them give very similar image quality for the same price, but if you visit photography forums you'll find people that just can't get used to a certain model of a certain brand, and normally for reasons you wouldn't even think of.
That doesn't turn that model into a lemon, but usually makes it more special to the ones that actually like it.
So, my question is, is there any phone on the market that works like a simple usb pen? Does the iphone do that? Blackberrys? And you could use bluetooth to transfer data, have you tried that?
Just trying to help, as i don't consider myself a geek, but i do prefer windows mobile over symbian.

jaugusto said:
So, my question is, is there any phone on the market that works like a simple usb pen? Does the iphone do that? Blackberrys? And you could use bluetooth to transfer data, have you tried that?
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Actually yes the BBs do USB File transfer when plugged into a PC with nothing extra installed. You get prompted on the device to enable Mass Storage Mode.

jaugusto said:
I prefer to think that technology is being developed, rather than big companies are just "milking us". Every new product is an evolution from something done before, not only with technology, but with everything manufactured in the capitalist markets we live in.
Basically, i think we have two choices: ware out our equipment untill we really need a new one (in case of a mobile phone for me i would say that it's about 3 years), or sell our semi-new equipment and buy a new one every year or so. I usually choose the first one, but i'm not always sure that it is the cheapest.
About speed, I know that the tytn II's are far from being the best phone HTC made, heck, my old magician (qtek s110) was way faster. But it didn't have to deal with gps, wifi, 3G, HSDPA, hardware keyboard, etc. They're only three years apart from each other, and look at the differences!
I actually agree with you that the kaiser is slow for a 2007 PDA, but it can do a lot. So, like everyone else in this forum, i've been reading, and trying, and failing, and trying again. The best Rom i've tried is shifu's v8, i do like it a lot. And the advantage of WM is that you can really do everything you want to change the look and the way you interact with your phone, and there are thousands of programs to do whatever you need your phone to do.
There's so many software out there, that it is hard to get to the best one for you. Some prefer SPB Mobile Shell3, i prefer Manila 2D. There's also the new Titanium in WM 6.5, PointUI, Throttle Launcher.... I compare this situation to the photography industry: there are hundreds of camera models, most of them give very similar image quality for the same price, but if you visit photography forums you'll find people that just can't get used to a certain model of a certain brand, and normally for reasons you wouldn't even think of.
That doesn't turn that model into a lemon, but usually makes it more special to the ones that actually like it.
So, my question is, is there any phone on the market that works like a simple usb pen? Does the iphone do that? Blackberrys? And you could use bluetooth to transfer data, have you tried that?
Just trying to help, as i don't consider myself a geek, but i do prefer windows mobile over symbian.
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I think corporations do plan to make every gadget quickly outdated. Hardware and software companies help each other in that regard. Software is designed to require more and more computing power even though is often not necessary. We could be a lot farther ahead after 20 years of consumer computers. MS is probably the main cause of this troubled development and we are still stuck with it. Window mobile may be better than others but is still very far from being good. That was also the idea of a MS project manager friend of mine who eventually left Seattle and MS. I remember venting my frustration with him and he had no excuse to offer.
I did do ROM upgrades early on but then I had to remove them after developing other problems. If one day I run into somebody that will do it for me I may give them another try. I just had it with this PDA I don't to waste anymore time.
I have a lot of other things in my life and I just don't want to spend time on something that should save me time. It just does not make any sense to me.
When this PDA will crap out I'll be very careful of what I may buy. I think I have learned the lesson. The only thing that I have appreciated is the navigator which is neither HTC or MS. I travel a lot so I keep the bastard only for that. I have to bear the bulk and weight of it for navigation and the occasional email.
I don't know if there are PDAs that can be used like a USB pen. I really hope so. It is such a simple thing, if there aren't any then it's really bad out there.
Thanks for your help
Cheers

I agree with everything you posted originally. Although, it's not HTC's fault as much as it is Microsoft's. I happen to love the G1
I've had a tilt for a year now and, while flashing ROMs does make it bearable, Windows Mobile just sucks in general imo.

mbarvian said:
I agree with everything you posted originally. Although, it's not HTC's fault as much as it is Microsoft's. I happen to love the G1
I've had a tilt for a year now and, while flashing ROMs does make it bearable, Windows Mobile just sucks in general imo.
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Great to hear that I am not the only unhappy here. Actually I believe there are a lot more but they don't want to admit it.
So you guys de-lurk yourself and get it off your chest. You'll feel better. After all we just bought the PDA, we did not do anything terrible. There wasn't much choice anyway. If I made it or the OS then I would feel really bad about myself.
Cheers