People have the right not to share Chefs come back! - Touch HD Windows Mobile ROM Development

People have the right not to share Chefs come back! - Touch HD Windows Mobile ROM Development

Dear David, Thank you for contacting HTC Europe. HTC are unable to offer any ROM's of any device pre the release of any of our handsets. HTC are tightly controlled by the lisence agreements we have with Microsoft, and to supply a ROM without a device is a breach of those license agreements. Whilst HTC values its customers and the overall online community of mobile device enthusiasts and fans, we will not supply you with the ROM's you requested in order for you to cook them. Kind Regards, Perry HTC Europe www.htc.com/europe
From HTC, makes sense to me not to throw the source around. might have even been htc paying, sure they have a look around here to see if they might have breached lisence agreements. after all if dutty paid he would have had to pay a lot, more then he makes off donations other wise mr X would have just spread it, if the money didnt talk.
And im also sure dutty would preffer everyone playing with it so it can progress faster with everyones input.
Chefs cant we move on?

please check here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=486931
thread closed.

Related

An Open Letter to Microsoft - Let us develop WM6 please

Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1

cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.

Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.

Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.

What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!

!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.

My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.

I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?

pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.

jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!

pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.

texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.

Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.

rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.

I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.

It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??

How's it legal?

I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks

Yeah, there's a line there somewhere. I think.

Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......

atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AFAIK there is a kind of morality behind it - if you can buy the software, and you are using it for free, its considered Warez.
If you cant buy the software then its considered that you are not taking food from anyone's mouth, and its tolerated.
Of course you could say you are reducing the competitive advantage of the other devices e.g. taking Omnia's widgets and moving it to a HTC Touch Diamond, and thats when things get messy, but I think this is generally how its seen and how it works.
Surur

If it's HTC software and you're using it for an HTC phone, it's asssumed that it's licensed for use on your device and acceptable. A bit of a stretch, but HTC has never, to my knowledge, requested that files be removed from XDA-Devs servers, so there seems to be tacit permission or simply active non-enforcement.
Same for AT&T appz &c if it's an AT&T phone or you're using their service, I suppose (likewise for other carriers and their apps).
If a software being distributed is a redistribution of a freeware (which should have allowed for redistribution in the freeware license), it's acceptable. As well, sharewares should not come preregistered or with serials or any means to circumvent proper registration and doing so or requesting such things gets posts deleted and accounts banned.
So that applies to non-OS/OEM/Carrier apps distributed in ROMs.
Because of various reasons (e.g. the fact that WinMo never really took off as much as Bill & Co. would have liked, and because OEMs and carriers don't want to spend money to license and prepare distributions of the WinMo OS thereby making customers less likely to invest in soon-to-be-obsolete devices, and I like to think a bit of respect for the hackers who manage to port and distro better ROMs than the carriers and OEMs), Bill & Co have decided not to send their anti-piracy witch hunters after WinMo ROMs. It is actively NOT enforced. (Different meaning from 'not actively enforced' and that's intentional.)
Because of the greyness in this area you will notice that no MS products are hosted on XDA-Dev servers.
However, to allay any fears on your part, if your OEM or carrier has provided version n of an OS, or released a free upgrade, or you have paid for a ROm upgrade for your phone's model, your hardware is licensed to use that version.
So, if you are truly worried about breaching laws that aren't, in fact, being enforced, do not upgrade to an OS version not distributed by your carrier/OEM or that has not been licensed as free.
I personally think that while the developer of WinMo turns one eye blind to these activities, the porting of WinMo versions to different hardwares is something they keep their other eye on closely as it's to their advantage and an area of activity and innovation that they probably exploit. Because they aren't stupid.
Does that make things clearer for anyone?
P.S.
I should disclose that I am not, in fact, qualified as a legal counsellor or a lawyer. I only play one on TV.
;-)

IIRC, the thought is "If the software is offered already in the shipped ROM, it's paid for and OK. As long as that ROM is ported in whole to another device." I believe the mods look down upon pulling 3rd party software from ROM's to use in another ROM that the software was not originally offered.
I believe that's the general consensus, though I may be wrong.

from legal stand point. nothing that is done here is considered as stealing. Consider this , you use linux an open source format. you can modify to accomdate your needs. which these tools are suppled from the linux distributer. Or it is like adding speakers and a good radio to your new car how ever you want to look at it.

atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the software can be ripped out of a stock rom from AT&T, etc, then it can be shared here. If it is software you must buy, like the maps for tomtom, then you cannot post them here. You can rip the tomtom software from an AT&T rom, so it's posted here. You must buy the maps, so they're not. Does that help a little?

91004 said:
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.

scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hello, just my opinion scotchua, but when it first read 91004 post and then the "smile" or grin posted, it made me laugh. had he not posted a "smile" or had he instead used this symbol "" ie sarcastic, then i think it would have been inappropriate. again just my opionion and i do value all the time you have invested here at XDA-Developers,
@91004 , welcome to XDA-Developers, this place is addicting and it rocks
thanks
Lupe

scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much

by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
If you post GameShoe#124 - well... everyone here is not ensured to have a license for the game. If the game is not a trial/freeware program, or otherwise checking to ensure you paid for the license to use it (such as a key).. then you're distributing content that is not owned or licensed & available to you.

BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, here's something to think about then: I could get a number of WM 6.1 ROMs as an upgrade to my WM 6 Kaiser but checking HTC's official site, there are no upgrades offered for my IMEI #. If we go strictly by the rules, the availability of WM 6.1 for me could be considered warez. On the other hand, tolerating this kind of relatively harmless behavior would certainly boost an OS's popularity.
In fact, one of the main reasons for my choosing HTC WM was the availability of these great number of ROMs, migrating from UIQ3.
There is a fine line, my definition would be: as long as the specific post does not have a negative financial impact on sales, it should be allowed.

91004 said:
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My point is simply that it was unfortunate that your first post is to get a dig in on the moderators' objectivity. When you know how much people complain about them and to them for doing a mostly thankless job, which they get no compensation for i might add, you'll understand why I don't think those type of comments are funny. I definitely understand that not all jokes are taken in the light in which they were intended; however, some jokes are best left unsaid. I certainly won't hold it against you as, just like you, i'm merely sharing my opinion.

BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you haven't. The device was licensed for use with the M$ product by the OEM. That license is restricted to a specific version, or versions on specific hardware
When the OEM or Carrier licenses an OS or an OS update that they are allowed to distribute, there is still an End User Licensing Agreement, and people have to read them to know what is allowed.
When one of our amazing XDA chefs cooks up a ROM or a new OS or a significant OS update and you install it on a device for which distribution was not licensed, this is warez. Read the EULA if in doubt.
Again, that's why XDA doesn't actually host those ROMs. Maybe official ROMs, but not hacked/ported ROMs.
However, it is currently an M$ policy to not enforce what is essentially warez distribution of the Win-Mobile OS. So I wouldn't worry about getting arrested or sued for installing one of these ROMs.
If M$ does decide to enforce, they don't go after the end users but the people distributing. So, end users, relax.
If you feel ethically bound to comply with EULAs and copyright laws, then you need to not use cooked ROMs that your device isn't licensed for or that the EULA doesn't permit you to use.
If you feel that laws that aren't enforced, or are unenforceable, are non-effective or lapsed, then you should do as your conscience directs you to do and be sure to stand up for yourself in court if lleh freezes over and M$ decides to enforce (and please do blog about it, I'll paypal you $5 bucks for your defence fund).
If you're a red-blooded rum-sodden pirate, you should say "Aaargh!" and do what you're going to do because you'd do it anyway.
Just please respect XDA Dev's policies whatever you choose to do and don't mess up a good thing.
BTW:
There is a policy listed in the site Rules or FAQ, so just read that and if you don't like it, don't leave angry, but please leave.
If you don't understand legal aspects and want to ask about it, PM the mods or admins and ask respectfully.
You can even PM me, but I cannot speak for XDA, I can only explain some legal basics and even then, my knowledge is based more in constitutional and criminal law.
I do think that threads like these call attention to the topic and it's best not to stir the pot, or rock the boat (pick your own metaphor of choice) and call the wrong kind of attention to the issues.
I'd like to see this thread closed down.

Exitao said:
...snip...
... don't leave angry, but please leave.
...snip...
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY! That's my line.
Your Wish Is Granted.
Thread Closed The Answer Has been given in this thread.
@91004, Honestly I laughed at your joke too.

I'll close the thread then
Dave

DaveShaw said:
I'll close the thread then
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
D'oh! Message to the Kids: Don't drink and Moderate.

Good news for us chefs...

Microsoft and HTC both agree on XDA-Developers "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em
According to tweakers.net (dutch), a very popular and more important, trustworthy Dutch IT website.http://forum.xda-developers.com/
XDA-Developers breaches intellectual property laws regarding ROM Cooking.
However Microsoft and HTC both agree "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em."
Microsoft will not send take down orders to sites such as XDA-Developers, who offer customized ROMs for windows-mobile telephone.
Some sites offering ROMs based on Windows Mobile 6.5 got take down orders last week. They, However, appeared to be hoax.
“Taking action against sites such as XDA-Developers isn’t a matter of concern for Microsoft” says Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands against tweakers.net. “What happens there, the modifying of ROMs, is illegal. The intellectual property however is not with us. The ROMs are intellectual property of the producers of the phone or the mobile phone providers if it concerns branded telephones. We simple only deliver the OS.”
The biggest producer of Windows Mobile-phones, HTC, also says they don’t have any plans to take action against ROM sites. “What happens there isn’t allowed” says HTC Benelux-CEO Mark Moons,
“But XDA-Developers is the biggest and most active community of Windows Mobile-developers. We can’t live with ‘em and we can’t live without ‘em.”
Last week it seemed there were to come an end to tolerating Windows Mobile-communities.
A certain ‘James Young’ sent emails on behalf of Microsoft to site managers in which he stated that they were sharing illegal content, and summoned them to stop their practices; some site managers, in fact, did this.
It mostly concerned ROMs with betas of Windows Mobile 6.5, the update of Microsoft’s Mobile OS that should appear this summer

Haha nice one

Nice, but doesn't come much as a surprise. This community is the only reason Windows Mobile is still competitive. And Microsoft knows it. Besides that, why should they bother? Other than on the desktop PC, the phone hardware is quite limited without proper drivers WM won't run on phones which weren't supposed to run it in the first place. So Microsoft sold their license, HTC (or any other manufacturer) bought it and end of story. They have absolutly no disadvantage when ppl start cooking ROMs - in the contrary. I can't even begin to image using my X1 or any other WM-phone without the customization options presented here. Without them, I wouldn't have bought another WM-phone and become a WM-fan ... ;-)

Read this on tweakers.net yesterday, don't know if we should be happy about this statement.
But it seems xda-developers is going to be watched carefully by MS and HTC, probably has been already.
Until the take serious actions against this community I'm going to flash my X1 with Touch-IT ROMs as many as possible

I would say Microsoft and HTC is the winners here. The ROM cooking means more people is attracted to the platform and for me the reason I bough the X1 was this community.

Rather than moaning, HTC and Microsoft should make donations to XDADevs because this community is one of the main reasons why both of them rose to unforeseen heights.

skycamefalling said:
Rather than moaning, HTC and Microsoft should make donations to XDADevs because this community is one of the main reasons why both of them rose to unforeseen heights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree with u lolz

E90 Commie said:
I would say Microsoft and HTC is the winners here. The ROM cooking means more people is attracted to the platform and for me the reason I bough the X1 was this community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
i bought my htc wizard and SE x1 because of xda-developers.if they shut rom sites down i ll never buy windows mobile device that's for sure.my phone is my home so i ll decide how will i decorate my home not microsoft.cheers

Yeah i've read that also (im dutch and visit that site 3 times a day or so )
I think that htc says "MAKE NICE ROMS XDA, or else we will.....)

I'll add my 2 pennies worth...
I'm not a cook, though I sorely wish I were! However, thanks to XDA developers, I've had WM phones for the past 5 years, up until Blue Angel I *only* would have Nokia phones, but I was given the Blue Angel as a present and hated it. I then accidentally found XDA when I was going to sell the Blue Angel and was looking for a way to unlock the sim. Figuring I had nothing to lose as I hated the phone anyway, I put a new rom on and fell in love! Since then, I've had every HTC phone and just recently went to the Xperia *ONLY* because of this website. If XDA wasn't here, I would have gotten the N96 or a Blackberry.
So, for what it is worth MS and HTC if you're reading... Leave XDA alone, support it where you can, and be happy for the generosity of this community for making the product you produce better and more usable!

the only reason I got rid of my Omina and went back to a HTC made pda was because of the support and options that I can find here, good move from microsoft however I suspect microsoft as always turned a blind eye to a degree (remember the fpt problems?)

Cool. This is a pretty big community of developers.

James Joung lives here in my neighbourhood
Now I understand why he has spent the whole week laughing

Well,
if it wern't for XDA developers, when I got my Orange c500 (Back in the day) that would have been the last WM phone I bought.
Since then ive had:
Orange c550
Orance c600
MDA Vario
HTC TYTN
HTC Touch Diamond
Sony Xperia X1
goes to show the value of XDA... if anything, I think Microsoft, HTC etc should jump on the band wagon and help chefs get the best out of WM, or at least, some kind of formal agreement should be attained to help protect the community

can't live without them(xda),hehe.. htc and microsoft should donate to support xda !

gtrab said:
James Joung lives here in my neighbourhood
Now I understand why he has spent the whole week laughing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe he was laughing because his CEO, told him that if he will try to touch this site, he will have to fill up for unemployment... This site have 41,159 members (ONLY ) and allmost all of us, we own between 2-4 HTC pda phones. If HTC will loose us, I guess that they will show the middle finger to Microsoft and they will stick with Android from the time on...

To be honest in that perverse way MS has BENEFITTED from 'Piracy' etc. throughout their history. Take Office for example - way back in the day Lotus and Wordperfect were the dominant market forces. MS were trying to force their way into the market wth their Office products. In the end they blew away the competition - how? Because their media had no copy protection - thus Office Workers ended up getting copies from work to put on their home PCs to carry on extra work at home. The others had copy protection.
MS turned a blind eye to this because they knew that the more people had Office, the more they would want it in their workplace - so much so that in the end how many companies use those products anymore? Now that they are the dominant force, Piracy is an issue.
It is the same with sites like XDA-Devs. The mobile phone market is huge and will get bigger even in these times. WinMo is still a small part of that market - Nokia and Symbian undoubtably have an edge here. However people are becoming more savvy about mobiles and want more from them which is where MS, RIM, and Apple come in (with an improving Symbian).
However if all the consumers had to rely on was 'Stock' ROMs and buggy WinMo (esp. when consumers will compare it to the iPhone etc.) then WinMo would have nowehere near the amount of consumers, and would die a slow death. However thanks to XDA-Devs (and sites like these) we can buy these phones confident that some super talented Cook will provide us with a ROM that will get us the full experience of these devices. Hence we will then buy the next generation, then the next etc.
MS and HTC know this - hence why they can't 'live without 'em'. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face eh?....

@itje
after reading the good news.. please bring back your Touch-IT WM 6.5 project rom.. hehe =)

damskie said:
@itje
after reading the good news.. please bring back your Touch-IT WM 6.5 project rom.. hehe =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He just did, and posted the new ROM for download.
[/offtopic]

Why this GREAT forum just can not help those GREAT freeware makers a better life?

Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?

First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.

Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.

Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.

Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!

Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.

Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.

[INFO] Emailing to HTC a.k.a. Operation "ath6kl_sdio.ko"

Emailing to HTC
a.k.a.
- - - Operation "ath6kl_sdio.ko" - - -

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Hey Guys,
As you know, our great little phone has lot of potentials, but HTC condemned it to the status of an entry-level phone, meaning its main purpose is to draw new customers to their more expensive devices. And thus they leave us in the dark in the development front, and not just us but other less hi-spec phones too, like our twin-brother the Explorer forum or the Amaze 4G who have both achieved amazing things despite the lack of support.
Compared to other companies like Sony and Samsung who aims to be a "good open source citizen" by releasing entire source codes ahead of the actual phone launch, we can call it carelessness, laziness or a marketing model with debatable efficiency, but that is not too important now.
The only thing we can do - similarly to other users of neglected phones, like the Amaze 4G - is to inundate HTC with emails from each one of us, so they become aware that there is a strong and willing community of Desire C users who are devoted to this phone not just because it is cheap, but for other reasons too :victory:
For me personally it's the size that hands down beats all the higher-spec bigger bros, and feature wise all it's category. Think about yours and write to them.
The aim of this thread is to highlight the holes in the official support and to provide information for anyone who is prepared to write HTC regarding the development issues we are facing. The post below will be updated parallel with the info we are gathering here.
>>> Therefore it would be appreciated if our devs and more technically literate members added their insights on these problems, so it can be communicated to the company effectively in an appropriate manner.
However we are looking for sharing valuable information here as we don't have anything else right now, so please aim for constructive comments and don't spam the thread with "it aint gonna happen no way" and "i hate you HTC, die cun**ts", herpaderpaderp and so on.
Sobbing, ranting or being cynical does not help at all, in fact does the opposite. <<<
::::: So guys, we can choose wether moaning about the shortcomings of our phone or actually do something about it even if one isn't a dev. Based on the info you find here and on these forums, write an email to HTC, some of us have done it already. We have nothing to lose and a pro-active collective attitude can make real change. In fact that's the only thing that does
CLICK to write to HTC
if you run out of space in the provided text-box, alternatively you can contact them here:
http://www.htc.com/uk/contact/email/
However, expect to get a well-bred canned reply with no actual help at all, but as an example look at the recent Amaze 4G success story (thanks for odunluzikkim and sakindia123 for pointing out).
You have to realise our strength is in collective effort, and its success is depending on each one of us, seriously.
To educate yourself in the topic:
-- about the success of the Amaze 4G community:
http://www.change.org/petitions/htc...ivers-sourcecode-associated-with-the-amaze-4g
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1679112
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1557500
-- about HTC's violations and company attitude:
http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/43185.html
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-c...ore-decisive?utm_source=ac&utm_medium=twitter
-- about the competition and HTC's situation on the market:
http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/as-s...-different-financial-results-can-htc-survive/
http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Samsung+Snag+99+of+Mobile+Phone+Profits+/article24616.htm
-- about software licensing:
http://www.fsf.org/about/
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/bsd/license.html
http://pthree.org/2007/08/08/bsd-license-explained-in-layman-terms/
And finally, if you believe this is a good cause and benefits for the whole Android and Open-Source Community:
) ) ) ) ) SPREAD THE WORD! ( ( ( ( ( 
- Include this or the petition in your signature and blog and write about it in forums. Click to download the press pack or the avatar pack
- Use Twitter, Facebook, G+ and all your social networks to tweet, share, post about it and about HTC's ignorant attitude
- Bombard @HTC and @HTCdev Twitter and Facebook and express the issue
More on #HASHTAGS will follow later -
Stay tuned

How and What to Write
Known issues with official support that hinders us in development:
Source code of the WiFi driver called "ath6kl_sdio.ko", that prevents the porting of fully functioning custom ROMs like CM9/10, AOKP and so on
S-OFF
ICS 4.04
Bootloader or Stock Kernel bug that causes reboot in Recovery
And we have the lack of Jelly Bean issue, but honestly I believe it is part of HTC's marketing policy, and asking them for it would be like asking Apple to build SD card slot in iPhones lol. Officially it is not gonna happen. But I also believe porting JB will happen sooner or later regardless if they care or not, and if they can make our devs' work easier with something, that is even better.
However given the situation, our priority now is the precious ath6kl_sdio.ko driver. And we will get it one way or an other So the emails and our petition should be focused on that, we can deal with the rest once we have this.
::::: Sooo, you want to write an email to HTC? Let our voice be heard and spam the hell out of them! But we need to do it professionally Have a good read on hasoon2000's thread from the Amaze 4G forum, it's amazing what these guys have been gone through. They have tried literally EVERYTHING and they were ready to push it even further.
The Battle Plan, Phase 1:
Phase 1 Operation “ath6kl_sido.ko”
Email Awareness Campaign;
This campaign will be a focused in two pronged strategy to HTC. The idea behind this is to create awareness within HTC that ;
(a) There is a problem with the Desire C software that needs to be addressed
(b) That we will not back down from this issue
(c) That the standard emails from support agents are not good enough and getting us nowhere
(d) That we would like the problem escalated to the appropriate division
(e) That we get a clear and defined answer to the problem from HTC
With this in mind we will embark on the following strategy;
i. Design four emails to HTC, hardcore and soft core, Desire C user and Non desire c users. DONE
ii. Orchestrate a combined email drive to htc support and htc public relations departments on Monday 8th April starting at 12:00 gmt
iii. These emails will be sent as close together as possible
iv. The troops will select a mail of the four templates that they comfortable with and adjust them if need be
v. That the emails will go to the following email addresses only: [email protected] (Vice President of Global Communications & Public Affairs); [email protected]
vi. This strategy will be implemented for one week only and then we will change tactics.
vii. To involve as many people as possible, including, family members and friends who do not belong to XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A couple of things to consider before writing your email:
--- "ath6kl_sdio.ko" was released by Atheros Communications Inc. under dual BSD/GPL license.
Apparently this means they are not obliged to release the code, since BSD - in contrast to GPL -, allows them to keep it if they want to. Dual BSD/GPL means they are free to choose either of the licenses:
- GPL grants that the code stays open source, once it has been reused it has to be released by law, no matter how mighty the company is there is no way around it, and this is why corporations don't like it, obviously it is set against the capitalist framework, and this is why open source loves it.
- BSD is also a free software license, but it allows you to take the free code and not giving it back to the open source community.
We can safely assume HTC chose the second option.
Basically we have to accept the fact that legally, they have the right to keep the code. On the other hand it is not a good fashion from them to do so, and we have to highlight this to them and to anyone out there on every possible channels. This is what means "giving them a bad PR".
--- From a point of marketing efficiency: HTC has been doing quite badly for while now against their competition, who recognised the asset in the co-operation with communities like ours. More support means more trustable brand image and stronger customer base. They are losing market due to being closed-minded.
--- Brand image: which company wants to be known for **** support, especially if they are openly state the opposite. On the main page of www.htcdev.com can be read:
HTC is constantly pushing to create the ultimate experience for developers. Now you can access the tools you need to make great things happen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- sounds quite embarrassing after flicking through the pages of this thread...
--- Keeping the code is very questionable ethically, this is what also russell664 was pointing out in his emails. This is a rational we can stick to, because there is simply no reason to keep the source code away from us, other then a stubborn and static marketing model, which is being proven to be outdated, inefficient and unsustainable. They are hoping an upheaval from One X and Sense 5, which is great, but the other companies have great new stuff too plus a loyal customer base, boooo....
--- Keeping the Desire C source code is not a question of life and death to them, but rather an initial decision which follows an outdated marketing model which leaves the open source initiative, like ours out of consideration (A clever company however grabs every bit of opportunity to turn it into profit). This is why we have to make them aware that we are here and we want the code, and we are not going to stop until they release it.
--- HTC is a huge company with bureaucratic structure. Convincing them won't be an easy task, be prepared to for a long and tough struggle. For the guys in Amaze 4G forum took 7 month. However they already have pioneered this before us which hopefully makes our job a bit easier. We just have to follow their example.
Be adult (even if you are not) and consider these before you post "...they don't help us... :crying:" etc. Know that they won't acknowledge their mistake or tell you "here is the driver, mr. xda member desire c user". Remember it is not a person but a corporate entity we are talking to at the end.
Do your homework:
Everyone who is concerned, please read through hasoon2000's thread, there is everything you need to know about how to deal with HTC. It is 30 pages but if you don't, you have no right to complain y u no have CM9
Let me quote the enlightening words of negotiation-master hasoon2000 from this post:
Remember, HTC is a huge company. You can't send an email like this
Y u know releaze da driverz 4 da Desiya See.
You have to be professional with them, at all times.
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Read ALL my posts so you can see my professionalism and CALL THEM OUT! Don't accept what they have to say. Frankly, I don't care what they say because I know what they will say. You need to attract attention and give them bad PR, professionally of course. After months of working on it and teaching people, they finally released the source.
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Unified template? Don't even. If I received multiple emails of the same thing with the only difference is the name, I wouldn't care because you didn't actually make an effort to convince me. Everyone has different experiences with different manufacturers, phones, etc. Tell them your story, why you got the Desire C. Whether it's because you have a budget or you don't want the latest and greatest phone. Maybe because you like the size of the phone or you have small hands. Whatever it may be, they had a reason for you to buy the phone or everything else. Tell them why you bought it, how you want to customize the phone with your hard earned money.
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These guys are corporate people. All they want is money. Find statistics on how HTC is losing sales and how Samsung/Apple are getting more market share. Tell them how HTC is losing customers and exposure over something small. Compressing the source code takes no more than 2 minutes. Uploading it takes a few minutes. Is that REALLY going to kill them? No, unless they don't release the source code. Tell them how Samsung was not developer friendly in the beginning and when they became developer friendly, look at them now. They are making BANK! HTC could do the same IF they weren't being assholes. When someone sees how cool a phone is when it has a custom ROM, people will start purchasing from that manufacturer because of the cool stuff it can do. Tell them all these things! Look at the Amaze 4G, we got out source.
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And now some examples of his correspondence with the company. Look at how he did not let them to overwhelm him and get away with bullsh*it. He broke the same canned responses what we already got, and gained attention with sheer logic:
Here is what I wrote:
HTC has made a promise to help to development community by releasing the source code as well as unlocking the bootloader for their devices. However, the TI WLAN source code has been withheld from the community. This slows development and can even cease development for the device completely. Without the source code, developers will have to develop blindly and hoping not to break anything in the process. The Amaze 4G has great potential due to his hardware and power that it harnesses. Android is an Open Source OS, but HTC is sounding more like Apple, holding their source from the public. People purchased the device to experience the "Real Feel" of Android by customizing it, installing Custom ROMs, tweaking it, etc. Without the WLAN source code, we, as a community, have starting to lose faith in HTC and some of us have even pledged to never purchase an HTC device again due to HTC's policies. The community will like for HTC to rethink their strategy and be "Open" with the community. The best form of advertisement is by "The Word-of-Mouth". When our community, the tech savvy and the owners of a smartphone, see how HTC listens to their customers requests, they will become more profitable and retain/gain new and loyal customers.
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Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can lead to more business and brand loyalty.
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HTC responded to me
Dear Odai,
I understand you would like to have certain source codes like the WLAN drivers to the development community. I realize that this information is of great importance to you. The only source code we have available is the full source code available on the HTC Developer website at http://htcdev.com. We do not currently have an option to send individual parts of the source code separately. Any parts of the kernel source code that are not included in the released source code on the website should be considered propriety and not available for release. Please visit http://htcdev.com/contact to leave comments about this feature. I thank you for sending your email to HTC today.
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My response to that
Since HTC is committed to helping the development community, hence HTCDev has been started, there have been a fair share of issues that is being withheld from us. There has been a lack of support for certain devices since new flagship phones have been released. For example, the HTC Amaze 4G is a device with great hardware, but HTC has not given us full support due to the face of the HTC One series being released. As a business student, I understand what is being done. HTC would like their new flagship phones to sell and give less support to older devices. However, we are being left out and since this is my first non-Nokia device, I feel betrayed by HTC already. I purchased the Amaze 4G due to its hardware and I know it can unleash its true potential, only with the help of HTC. However, this is not the case. There are devices with over 10 custom made kernels and how many does the Amaze have? Only one and that is for Gingerbread and it has slight modifications since the full source has not be released. This is a huge setback to us users. We have barely any type of custom ROMs. We have not AOSP (Android Open Source Project) ROMs since we need the full kernel source to even make a kernel that is compatible with AOSP ROMs.
The Sensation development is sky high booming with plenty of developers. As a developer for the HTC Amaze 4G, looking at the Sensation development is heart breaking. The Amaze is truly better, but yet has no support from those who created it. It is like leaving a baby in the street. You do not do that.
HTC needs to realize for those who purchase their devices and would like to retain loyalty to HTC, HTC needs to treat their customers back as well. Without us, HTC is nothing.
As I stated earlier, this is my first Non-Nokia device and I already feel betrayed by HTC. If HTC cannot fix their act and be committed to those purchase their devices, they will lose customers significantly.
There should be a way to release the full source to us HTC Amaze 4G owners by talking to other companies that have their hardware in the Amaze. If that cannot be done, this will be my first and last HTC device ever.
So do what you can and stay committed to your program for us HTC users. Without your support, we feel betrayed since the company is not living up to their word. For us, it is hypocrisy while you guys believe it is business. The best business is customer support. If customers are not given what they have been truly promised, HTC might as well just shut down or reallocate to another industry. Just my opinions and my response.
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The responded to my message.
I can definitely understand how the previous agent’s answer would make you upset. I’ll be glad to help you, Odai. By law, all that we are required to release is the kernel source code. HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC, as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
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My response
Samuel, thank you for responding. Danielle blew off my message and that is not great customer service. However, I see conflicting interests from messages I have been told as well as other. Some of the users have been told
"HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community."
Also, "Hello, (name omitted), and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!"
Why are the messages all conflicting? Some say it is not required, some say you have to wait 90 - 120 days when devices, like the Sensation, received the source code within 2 weeks of the ICS release. The management is either terrible or the staff is not properly trained.
Do you see why we are not happy with HTC? High Tech Computers is what HTC stands for, correct? HTC is also looking to help out the development community, correct? The only company that TRULY believes in the development community is Samsung. They acknowledged the work at XDA-Developers.com and they see how important it is to get in touch with those who love to customize their devices. Without releasing the source code to use so we can take advantage of OUR devices, you'll end up with unsatisfied customers and you will lose loyal customers. As a first time owner of an HTC device, I am pretty mad that I can't truly take advantage of it. I worked for T-Mobile for a few years and sold many HTC and Samsung phones. I always saw the Samsung owners are able to have full and true control of their devices. It is not the same however, with HTC.
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Remember folks! TAKE INITIATIVE! CALL THEM OUT! TELL THEM WHAT OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING! Be a man! lol
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Can I say progress?
Dear Odai,
Thanks for getting back to me, Odai. I’m honestly not sure why there is conflicting information. The first email that you quoted contains the correct information. The time frame that we generally release new kernels is 90 to 120 days. Though I don’t know why the Sensation’s source code was available so soon, there’s no reason I can see why the Amaze’s wouldn’t be released within the 90 to 120 time frame previously mentioned. Since the Amaze 4G is part of the bootloader unlock program, the latest source code will be posted to htcdev.com when available. Due to the inconsistency of the responses you’ve seen, I can definitely understand why you and others would be so unhappy. Personally, I’m going to do what I can to make sure this addressed and prevent conflicting and misinformation in the future. I agree with you that members of the developer community have the right to this information and only with that can they push their devices to the limit. If there’s anything else I can do for you, please let me know. Thanks again for taking the time to contact us and for being an HTC customer.
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My response
Samuel, I am glad that you have acknowledged the issues and the inconsistency in the messages we are given. I commend you for that.
As a Recognized Developer on XDA-Developers, as well as speaking on behalf of the Amaze 4G community, we would like HTC to work a deal with us. We need the source code, the full source code I should say, to help our development for the Amaze.
Reasons are as follows:
1. It will retain customer loyalty.
2. It will increase in sales/customer database.
3. Receiving a better name for the company.
I will explain how it will for each reason.
1. As I have stated, it will retain customer loyalty. When customers see the company taking care of them and fully addressing their issues, customers will be happy, even if the problem is not fixed. They see HTC cares and tries to do their best. HTC has well built all around devices and that is why customers continue purchasing HTC devices.
2. The sales number will increase. It may be a slight amount, but when customers enjoy their phones, they will continue purchasing the devices in the future. When I show my friends what my phone can do, it blows their mind. I have friends who purchase the phone I have because I show them what it can do and what their phones cannot do. Remember, the best advertisement is word-of-mouth.
3. A company should be a people company. HTC shows that they care about the development community by opening HTCDev. That is wonderful to see someone has been paying attention to us. Samsung does promotions specifically for XDA-Developers. They have truly recognized our community and they even hired a developer! HTC should see how big the customer base of XDA-Developers, CyanogenMod, RootzWiki and many other development websites/forums. When they show true interest in us, we will defend the company if someone speaks bad about it, etc.
All the reasons tie in with one another. Samuel, I believe you should pass our conversation along to the higher management. They should not blow our community off.
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Are you guys taking notes??
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Another response
Dear Odai,
I really appreciate all the feedback you’ve given us, Odai. I can definitely take and forward our conversation to management. Hopefully through this we can get you guys some more support. If there’s ever anything else I can do for you, just let me know. I hope you have a good weekend, and thanks again for reaching out to us.
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You guys REALLY need to do the same as I did! BRING IT TO THEIR ATTENTION!
Read the conversation. Look at my writing style. See how I took the initiative and yet, I was 100% professional?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, you enjoyed the reading I hope
Finally, here are the points to bear in mind, ALWAYS:
When you contact them initially, the agent handles you as a retard by default: answers to questions you didn't ask or just simply gives stupid answers. Not because he is a bad person or high on drugs, but not trained on solving such a case. If it becomes apparent that they cannot manage your query, the maximum they can do is to escalate the case, but again, it depends on the agent, towards which department does he/she do that, it can vary. But if we push it through, at the end this will be more efficient since they will be having the same case coming from all over the departments of the company, and the managers of each of these departments will have to notice us as a community with strong commitment, among the usual "how to change my battery" or "my dog swallowed my Wildfire, you gonna pay for this" type of emails. If your first email fits to the text box provided on www.htcdev.com, then the best is if you send your email there.
The point is that their ridiculous initial ignorance actually pays off for you, because you can embarrass them by facing them with their own outcrying stupidity, such as they don't even know their own devices. Complain about their poor customer support and give examples why until they have to take you seriously, and believe me - they will. After this most possibly you will get a new agent who uses less template and replies to your actual questions, and not like an answering-bot. But for this, you need get though the initial impersonal template-using phase. So again please, don't post their reply with comments like "wtf thats weird" and "thats a whole load of bullcraq and [email protected]*%trash" - otherwise everyone will think you are childish. Don't be naive and expect their initial style, which will change if you don't behave like a child, trust me.
Also aim to post their reply with yours, with the one you replied, to keep the ball rolling. You have the chance to be more pro-active here, this is what we need, don't just paste it passively and then expect we will munching on it. We already have seen enough of those emails, show us your initiative! And don't leave your first email out of the conversation, so other members can benefit from your words. Don't be shy, everyone has to start somehow and we are here to help each other.
And most importantly, you will have to maintain a professional manner, otherwise you lose your advantage as a serious and self-aware customer you have against them.
>>>>>>>>
Here is what I wrote (thanks for whoamigriffiths for the english check). You can follow the lines of these and hasoon2000's original email, but please make it personal, don't just copy-paste it. Remember what he told us here. Explain them what you want and why you want it, why it is important to us and why co-operation is beneficial for both of us, and why the lack of real co-operation is not. Also, express that you are writing in the name of the whole community. You can mention our forum had more then 2.000.000 views since it was founded in July 2012.
And most importantly, be explicit. Always state that you want the source code of the WiFi driver "ath6kl_sdio.ko".
They will continue to hear about us Wether they like it or not.
Dear HTC,
I belong to a thriving community of Desire C users and developers. We like this phone very much and chose it for numerous reasons, price was not the only factor.
Personally I like its small size which still comes with an attractive design and relatively good performance.
For me, these features helped me decide to choose this phone, not only over others in the same category, but over more expensive devices on the market - hands down.
However the lack of substantive official support for our phone hinders us in further enhancing this already great little device.
We as a community are well aware that certain things, like official Jelly Bean support is unlikely to happen for various reasons that are both out of our reach as well as out of your reach too as a Company.
But speaking in the name of our Community, I am asking you to kindly enhance your customer support and, like your competitors, release more source code for us to use.
The most important code that we need is:
- the source code of the WiFi driver "ath6kl_sdio.ko" that is not present in the kernel source
Without it the porting of fully functioning custom ROMs like the famous CyanogenMod, AOSP and AOKP is not possible.
We have been fond of HTC since the Hero came out, which was the first phone on the market that was cool enough to compete with iPhone.
Also we have appreciated the Companys attitude in opening up to the Open-Source Community in the past by setting up HTCdev.com, that has been providing help for Independent Developers.
We aim to further strengthen this co-operation and believe together we can work for even better devices that are more customised according to the users needs.
This makes us - your more adventurous customers - happier and our work on this device has to be for the good of everyone: us, HTC and quite possibly, both new phones and new customers in the future.
A better support now, also makes it possible for us to tell everyone in the Open-Source Community that HTC is one of those rare Companies which honestly cares for its users.
With kindest regards,
Your Name
from XDA Developers HTC Desire C Community
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Soon, like the Amaze 4G guys we will release a petition, which will be addressed to Peter Chou, the CEO of HTC. Until then write your emails and stay optimist regardless of the response, remember the positive example in front of us. Stay focused on what we want and be persistent. No need to get angry, simply because we are part of something which is incomparably stronger then them:laugh:

Great job starting this thread :good: .Hopefully all the desire c users from our forum will support this and our device can finally get the attention it deserves

Re: Emails to HTC
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium

Yup great idea . Hopefully we can keep this thread positive

Apex-Predator said:
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
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are you sure? i'm asking because had been like this before. did you read this link? this thread? it's worked before.

Apex-Predator said:
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
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I think emailing HTC and asking help from Pico devs doesn't exclude each other. We do whatever we can, and all the help is appreciated really much, as already it is from you guys We are pulling ourselves together for bigger horizons.

As far as i'm concerned, we need to annoy HTC to prove that there is a user base that requires support. Weather that support is in the form of jellybean or the source code of the kernel with WIFI modules. The point is as many others will agree is that HTC is a hand out and forget company they release nice little phones, and leave them unsupported, which is wrong, we need to get HTC's attention on this matter, me for one am sending multiple emails to them asking why they will not do anything, and if they can release some more source code.
Hopefully we can make something of this thread, keep it positive and post your emails from HTC here so everyone can see what they say about the matter.

The devs should focus on a CM9 setup, leave HTC devs behind, yes there open source would help but they wont help due to no money involved, the push the power of this phone it looses them money on the bigger phones (One X etc) our devs have the ability to make a CM9 or JB rom, support our devs!!!!

XDroidie626 said:
The devs should focus on a CM9 setup, leave HTC devs behind, yes there open source would help but they wont help due to no money involved, the push the power of this phone it looses them money on the bigger phones (One X etc) our devs have the ability to make a CM9 or JB rom, support our devs!!!!
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hey XDroidie626, I agree with you that the reason for lack of support is that there is no money incentive behind it, but there is also a vested interest for the big companies to support open-source communities, which pays off indirectly for them and it is good for everyone, and it's an increasing trend. I think emialing HTC and supporting our devs do not exclude each other, we put in whatever we can

stick
I think the thread should be sticked, as it is for raising awareness for new and existing members. If you think it too, report it through the reporting service and ask for making it stick.

Okay I contacted them, and this is what I got:
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding your HTC Desire C.
My name is Rob and I am a Technical Support Agent for the HTC Written Team.
I understand you are missing the Wi-Fi modules in the kernel source code.
I'm afraid we do not have the facility to send certain parts of the source code. If you are not able to find the part you are looking for, please then follow the HTC Dev Twitter. Any additional releases will be posted on here.
HTC Dev twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.
I am confident that this will resolve your query, in the unlikely event that this does not please call or instant chat to one of our Technical Support Agents who will be waiting to guide you through step by step. Our Contact Details can be found at www.htc.com/uk/contact
Should you wish to continue your correspondence via email then please reply using the link below
Not one bit of help

guys forget jB .. htc one v doesnt have it so does desire c ... look for ics 4.0.4 with sense 4.1 !!

Re: [INFO] Emails to HTC
russell664 said:
Okay I contacted them, and this is what I got:
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding your HTC Desire C.
My name is Rob and I am a Technical Support Agent for the HTC Written Team.
I understand you are missing the Wi-Fi modules in the kernel source code.
I'm afraid we do not have the facility to send certain parts of the source code. If you are not able to find the part you are looking for, please then follow the HTC Dev Twitter. Any additional releases will be posted on here.
HTC Dev twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.
I am confident that this will resolve your query, in the unlikely event that this does not please call or instant chat to one of our Technical Support Agents who will be waiting to guide you through step by step. Our Contact Details can be found at www.htc.com/uk/contact
Should you wish to continue your correspondence via email then please reply using the link below
Not one bit of help
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I told ya
They won't help !!!
U guys need to find our own ways
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium

Post this thread on your Twitter, Facebook etc!
Email sended :3

@alex-predator, i asking you again. did you read this? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1679112
really, not to be so pessimistic.

russell664 said:
Not one bit of help
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It's not surprising, but we have to keep pushing to reach a critical mass
utsav17 said:
guys forget jB .. htc one v doesnt have it so does desire c ... look for ics 4.0.4 with sense 4.1 !!
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Please read this post, no one is hoping for official JB here.
Apex-Predator said:
I told ya
They won't help !!!
U guys need to find our own ways
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No one said it is going to happen by writing an email, and as I said to keep contacting HTC by the entire community doesn't exclude finding our own ways in developing, in fact this is what our devs are doing right now.
And to everyone who is reading this, from now on I would really appreciate if you only posted constructive comments, this thread is not for gloating or giving out frustrations but to help to make things happen. Thank you!

Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC technical support.
I appreciate you taking the time to provide us with some feedback regarding what you would like to see us provide to better assist you and other members of the development community, Andrew.
I will certainly notate your feedback for consideration with regards to providing specific source codes and providing an S-Off option in the future.
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Sure, they have given me a "positive" answer...in the future....

TheRedHunter said:
Sure, they have given me a "positive" answer...in the future....
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These are 100% the expected responses, we just have to keep pushing on a regular basis, all of us.

Suggestion
I know that other thread asked for people to write from the heart etc in an attempt(successful) to get things done
But
And this is just a suggestion from personal experience.
The majority of people are likely to read a thread like this and nod in agreement , then do nothing about it.
It might be good if someone wrote a 'template' email for people to copy and paste as well as the link to the email of HTC (Already includedI know).
You might find you get a much better response from the people who read (and don't generally participate)the Forum.
I know HTC will see the same email over and over BUT they will be from different people and phone numbers . It will in effect become a written protest from desire c owners.

Database Develop

welcome