Related
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.
Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.
Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo
rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.
jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!
pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.
Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.
rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??
I've found a couple of companies that specialize in developing drivers for handheld devices, one of them is particulary interesting as it has done exactly what we're looking for before. I need someone who can talk to them and get them all the details and specs.
Here's the correspondence so far:
Me to them:
'm writing on behalf of HTC Kaiser owners. It's pretty much well
known to whoever is interested in PDAs that HTC has shipped many of its
recent devices without proper video drivers. They have a Qualcomm chipset
with (reportedly) ATI Imageon hardware acceleration in it, but not enabled
or not properly used. We've collected a good sum of money to get those
drivers developed, and I wanted to ask whether your company can help us with
this. More info (including specifics of the problem) can be found here:
http://www.htcwiki.com/page/HTC+TyTN+II+Driver+Issues and here:
www.htcclassaction.org Please let me know whether you can help us with that
and we can talk about compensation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They answered:
Thank you for contacting ALT Software.
We would be happy to discuss your requirements with you. As you may be
aware, ALT has been developing software driver solutions for our clients for
over 13 years now. Our team has extensive experience in creating system and
embedded level software. In fact ALT supports a variety of ATI chips within
our own OpenGL product line, as well as having been engaged by AMD/ATI on
other software development projects enabling new chips for the HDTV and set
top box industry.
ALT definitely has the ability to support your group; however the key
component that may be lacking is access to the hardware specifications,
registry specs for the chip, and existing driver source from ATI & Qualcomm.
Does your group have access to those specifications? Without that
information, it would make the task monumental.
Are you able to provide me with a ballpark on the budget your group has set
aside for this work?
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Thanks,
Rob
Robert ********* - Sales Manager
ALT Software Inc.
****************
****************
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've answered:
Thanks for getting back to us.
Here's the basic info on the chipset: http://www.qualcomm.com/press/releases/2006/060404_sampling_msm7200_chipset.html
There are a lot of senior developers in the community, I'm sure I can get more details on the problem and about the chipset from them. HTC also promised to release some kind of a fix for video rendering that may help you.
So far we've collected over $4000 for this, and if more is needed - I'm sure people will pile in more as they will see that someone is working on it.
Let me get some people who know drivers better than me so that we can provide better details.
In the meantime, let me know what the price range for this could be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I covered the contact info so that he doesn't get swarmed with descriptions. We need to keep this at a reasonable level. I will give his email and phone to however decides to handle this.
Wow, cool man. I'm just afraid we don't have enough specs from HTC to get the project going...
That's where the money come in. I just need someone who can talk hardware to these guys and figure out the details.
Good legwork. I would think a company like this would want to charge at least 50-100k considering the impact. But I could be WAY off(hopefully). You may want to mention to them the high profile this issue has gotten and that they could potentially come out of all of this as hero's and get a lot of good publicity which may add a lot of value instead of cash...
Yeah I was just thinking about that. We could use publicity.
So far however, they want to know the extent of the problem.. They wanna know how much work is needed (understandably). That's why I need someone who has whatever info we can possibly have about this.
bump this...important.
DarkDvr said:
Yeah I was just thinking about that. We could use publicity.
So far however, they want to know the extent of the problem.. They wanna know how much work is needed (understandably). That's why I need someone who has whatever info we can possibly have about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your best bet is Chainfire. Have you PM'd him?
Well, they are looking for a job that's $20K+, large scale projects. I tried to persuade them with publicity and ease of the project... but they declined.
However, they recommended finding someone on scguild.com.
I'll try that today...
If anybody has any leads - let us know.
Perhaps we should consider taking this approach
Show this company figures that represent the number of units the Kaiser and its variations have shown.
Let them know we will raise money up front to get them started.
Let them know they can make money by charing fro a fix and give them the numbers to back it up.
For example:
If 1 million people (and I read here at xda that it is in fact more than that, but I DO NOT KNOW) have bought the Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II etc etc etc and only 5% of the purchasers buy a fix at lets say $20 then they stand to make $250,000 in addition to whatever start up costs we can give them.
If we get this (or another) company to commit to doing this, and we get an upfront number they require to start the development, then we have a solid goal. We then start a campaign not only at xda, but worldwide, involve the media who has covered this story. The media entities who have covered this to date, have a great follow up story. This in turn gets the coverage needed to show them enough people will buy the fix after development.
For example, they might say "We will be willing to develop this for $XXXXX upfront if outlets exist where we can be assured there is DISTRIBUTION for the fix.
We then have a goal:
Start a world wide campaign to raise the upfront costs.
Secure distribution at every pocket pc software sales site we can contact.
They just might go for it.
That is a lot of money!
Money talks. Publicity seems like a good idea, but they want cash. Show them this is but one way of how to get it!!!!!!
mrmega said:
Perhaps we should consider taking this approach
Show this company figures that represent the number of units the Kaiser and its variations have shown.
Let them know we will raise money up front to get them started.
Let them know they can make money by charing fro a fix and give them the numbers to back it up.
For example:
If 1 million people (and I read here at xda that it is in fact more than that, but I DO NOT KNOW) have bought the Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II etc etc etc and only 5% of the purchasers buy a fix at lets say $20 then they stand to make $250,000 in addition to whatever start up costs we can give them.
If we get this (or another) company to commit to doing this, and we get an upfront number they require to start the development, then we have a solid goal. We then start a campaign not only at xda, but worldwide, involve the media who has covered this story. The media entities who have covered this to date, have a great follow up story. This in turn gets the coverage needed to show them enough people will buy the fix after development.
For example, they might say "We will be willing to develop this for $XXXXX upfront if outlets exist where we can be assured there is DISTRIBUTION for the fix.
We then have a goal:
Start a world wide campaign to raise the upfront costs.
Secure distribution at every pocket pc software sales site we can contact.
They just might go for it.
That is a lot of money!
Money talks. Publicity seems like a good idea, but they want cash. Show them this is but one way of how to get it!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldnt personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Good idea, I like it.
I'm not giving up - still searching and spamming developers who would be interested in this. If anybody else googles driver development companies - that'd make it easier and faster for us all.
I've got a good description of the problem (thanks Chainfire) which you can use to describe the problem:
"The problem with the current drivers is that they essentially just dump the completely software rendered screen on to the display memory, and that's pretty much all they do. Direct3D and OpenGL ES drivers are missing completely.
No use is made of any sort of acceleration that is provided by the ATI Imageon technology used in these Qualcomm MSM7200/MSM7500 based devices.
What we want are GDI / DDI, DirectDraw/3D, OpenGL ES and GAPI drivers that do make use of the available hardware acceleration."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thefunkygibbon said:
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldnt personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All we need is 1 ROM with proper drivers in it. Everything else is easy.
however the key component that may be lacking is access to the hardware specifications, registry specs for the chip, and existing driver source from ATI & Qualcomm.
I'm not a pro, but isn't that just the problem??
That's just what's needed, and no one seems to have it. (Or is willing to provide)
$20 000 is not that much. Thats just $20 from 1000 people.
Imagine selling the driver for $20. Way more than 1000 people would buy it. I dont think this amount of money needs to be an obstacle.
Surur
Er...
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TELL THEN HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE!!!!!
Geez people!
You ALWAYS ASK A PRICE QUOTE AND THEN HAGGLE!!!!
They say, so you got 4k... we want 10k+
BUT
if you ask a price range, they dont know how much we have, and then cant ask double for it. Understand?
Time to start with a new company...
Hehe, well these guys' problem was not really the money, it was the volume as he himself said.
His words:
"Unfortunately, ALT will have to decline this scope.
You may have better luck looking to a individual contractor boards such as www.scguild.com."
But point taken. I've ran through that website and wrote to many potential graphics driver developers... we'll see what they say.
thefunkygibbon said:
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldn't personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only suggested my idea because we are talking about a 3rd party developing this for us, not HTC. I am not a developer so I don't know how the fix would be applied so please forgive my lack of understanding of how the fix needs to be applied.
If it is a driver, and the devs here would have to cook it into a rom or roms then maybe we are only paying for the driver.
All I can say is that we have a goal, and if HTC wont give give us what we need, and if none of the developers here can succeed then we we have to consider resorting to going to a 3rd party company to develop the solution.
A 3rd party company is only going to be interested in the $$$. I can only speak for myself, but if my choices are to have no drivers or to pay for them... I, like everyone else who pledged to the bounty thread will GLADLY pay to get this issue fixed.
Do I want to pay? NO! HTC should have given this to us but they did not so I don't know what else to suggest.
How about these:
http://www.pfaadtsoft.de/
Here's some stuff I found on MSDN:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890622.aspx
I haven't bothered reading it but the title looked interesting
This section in general might hold interesting info:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447511.aspx
undac said:
How about these:
http://www.pfaadtsoft.de/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
good find, email sent.
Here's some stuff I found on MSDN:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890622.aspx
I haven't bothered reading it but the title looked interesting
This section in general might hold interesting info:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447511.aspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's to whoever understands driver better than me.
I'd be willing to chip in a good amount. Was already looking into other companies fixing the problem, but they would need a lot of information that only Qualcomm and HTC have. :\
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Yeah, there's a line there somewhere. I think.
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AFAIK there is a kind of morality behind it - if you can buy the software, and you are using it for free, its considered Warez.
If you cant buy the software then its considered that you are not taking food from anyone's mouth, and its tolerated.
Of course you could say you are reducing the competitive advantage of the other devices e.g. taking Omnia's widgets and moving it to a HTC Touch Diamond, and thats when things get messy, but I think this is generally how its seen and how it works.
Surur
If it's HTC software and you're using it for an HTC phone, it's asssumed that it's licensed for use on your device and acceptable. A bit of a stretch, but HTC has never, to my knowledge, requested that files be removed from XDA-Devs servers, so there seems to be tacit permission or simply active non-enforcement.
Same for AT&T appz &c if it's an AT&T phone or you're using their service, I suppose (likewise for other carriers and their apps).
If a software being distributed is a redistribution of a freeware (which should have allowed for redistribution in the freeware license), it's acceptable. As well, sharewares should not come preregistered or with serials or any means to circumvent proper registration and doing so or requesting such things gets posts deleted and accounts banned.
So that applies to non-OS/OEM/Carrier apps distributed in ROMs.
Because of various reasons (e.g. the fact that WinMo never really took off as much as Bill & Co. would have liked, and because OEMs and carriers don't want to spend money to license and prepare distributions of the WinMo OS thereby making customers less likely to invest in soon-to-be-obsolete devices, and I like to think a bit of respect for the hackers who manage to port and distro better ROMs than the carriers and OEMs), Bill & Co have decided not to send their anti-piracy witch hunters after WinMo ROMs. It is actively NOT enforced. (Different meaning from 'not actively enforced' and that's intentional.)
Because of the greyness in this area you will notice that no MS products are hosted on XDA-Dev servers.
However, to allay any fears on your part, if your OEM or carrier has provided version n of an OS, or released a free upgrade, or you have paid for a ROm upgrade for your phone's model, your hardware is licensed to use that version.
So, if you are truly worried about breaching laws that aren't, in fact, being enforced, do not upgrade to an OS version not distributed by your carrier/OEM or that has not been licensed as free.
I personally think that while the developer of WinMo turns one eye blind to these activities, the porting of WinMo versions to different hardwares is something they keep their other eye on closely as it's to their advantage and an area of activity and innovation that they probably exploit. Because they aren't stupid.
Does that make things clearer for anyone?
P.S.
I should disclose that I am not, in fact, qualified as a legal counsellor or a lawyer. I only play one on TV.
;-)
IIRC, the thought is "If the software is offered already in the shipped ROM, it's paid for and OK. As long as that ROM is ported in whole to another device." I believe the mods look down upon pulling 3rd party software from ROM's to use in another ROM that the software was not originally offered.
I believe that's the general consensus, though I may be wrong.
from legal stand point. nothing that is done here is considered as stealing. Consider this , you use linux an open source format. you can modify to accomdate your needs. which these tools are suppled from the linux distributer. Or it is like adding speakers and a good radio to your new car how ever you want to look at it.
atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the software can be ripped out of a stock rom from AT&T, etc, then it can be shared here. If it is software you must buy, like the maps for tomtom, then you cannot post them here. You can rip the tomtom software from an AT&T rom, so it's posted here. You must buy the maps, so they're not. Does that help a little?
91004 said:
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hello, just my opinion scotchua, but when it first read 91004 post and then the "smile" or grin posted, it made me laugh. had he not posted a "smile" or had he instead used this symbol "" ie sarcastic, then i think it would have been inappropriate. again just my opionion and i do value all the time you have invested here at XDA-Developers,
@91004 , welcome to XDA-Developers, this place is addicting and it rocks
thanks
Lupe
scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
If you post GameShoe#124 - well... everyone here is not ensured to have a license for the game. If the game is not a trial/freeware program, or otherwise checking to ensure you paid for the license to use it (such as a key).. then you're distributing content that is not owned or licensed & available to you.
BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, here's something to think about then: I could get a number of WM 6.1 ROMs as an upgrade to my WM 6 Kaiser but checking HTC's official site, there are no upgrades offered for my IMEI #. If we go strictly by the rules, the availability of WM 6.1 for me could be considered warez. On the other hand, tolerating this kind of relatively harmless behavior would certainly boost an OS's popularity.
In fact, one of the main reasons for my choosing HTC WM was the availability of these great number of ROMs, migrating from UIQ3.
There is a fine line, my definition would be: as long as the specific post does not have a negative financial impact on sales, it should be allowed.
91004 said:
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My point is simply that it was unfortunate that your first post is to get a dig in on the moderators' objectivity. When you know how much people complain about them and to them for doing a mostly thankless job, which they get no compensation for i might add, you'll understand why I don't think those type of comments are funny. I definitely understand that not all jokes are taken in the light in which they were intended; however, some jokes are best left unsaid. I certainly won't hold it against you as, just like you, i'm merely sharing my opinion.
BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you haven't. The device was licensed for use with the M$ product by the OEM. That license is restricted to a specific version, or versions on specific hardware
When the OEM or Carrier licenses an OS or an OS update that they are allowed to distribute, there is still an End User Licensing Agreement, and people have to read them to know what is allowed.
When one of our amazing XDA chefs cooks up a ROM or a new OS or a significant OS update and you install it on a device for which distribution was not licensed, this is warez. Read the EULA if in doubt.
Again, that's why XDA doesn't actually host those ROMs. Maybe official ROMs, but not hacked/ported ROMs.
However, it is currently an M$ policy to not enforce what is essentially warez distribution of the Win-Mobile OS. So I wouldn't worry about getting arrested or sued for installing one of these ROMs.
If M$ does decide to enforce, they don't go after the end users but the people distributing. So, end users, relax.
If you feel ethically bound to comply with EULAs and copyright laws, then you need to not use cooked ROMs that your device isn't licensed for or that the EULA doesn't permit you to use.
If you feel that laws that aren't enforced, or are unenforceable, are non-effective or lapsed, then you should do as your conscience directs you to do and be sure to stand up for yourself in court if lleh freezes over and M$ decides to enforce (and please do blog about it, I'll paypal you $5 bucks for your defence fund).
If you're a red-blooded rum-sodden pirate, you should say "Aaargh!" and do what you're going to do because you'd do it anyway.
Just please respect XDA Dev's policies whatever you choose to do and don't mess up a good thing.
BTW:
There is a policy listed in the site Rules or FAQ, so just read that and if you don't like it, don't leave angry, but please leave.
If you don't understand legal aspects and want to ask about it, PM the mods or admins and ask respectfully.
You can even PM me, but I cannot speak for XDA, I can only explain some legal basics and even then, my knowledge is based more in constitutional and criminal law.
I do think that threads like these call attention to the topic and it's best not to stir the pot, or rock the boat (pick your own metaphor of choice) and call the wrong kind of attention to the issues.
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
Exitao said:
...snip...
... don't leave angry, but please leave.
...snip...
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY! That's my line.
Your Wish Is Granted.
Thread Closed The Answer Has been given in this thread.
@91004, Honestly I laughed at your joke too.
I'll close the thread then
Dave
DaveShaw said:
I'll close the thread then
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
D'oh! Message to the Kids: Don't drink and Moderate.
Hi all,
I would like to see if anyone has advice about that topic. I've asked lawyers and they all tell me that is always better to publish apps as a company (for example as an LLC), mainly because that gives you legal protection, in case something goes wrong with your app (you get sued for its contents, or copyright infringement, whatever...). Of course that means creating an LLC company, which has quite a bit of expenses associated with it...
I would like to get some advice about what to do in my situation. I have a full time job and I would like to start Android development more like a side job, slowly at the beginning and hopefully being able to make it a good source of income over time. But the moment I publish something I'm already "exposed" to the "dangers" I mention above... For what I've been told, publishing as a company gives you more "peace of mind", but in my case, at least at the beginning, would feel like a pretty big overkill...
Of course I would do my best to avoid any kind of potential legal problem with any app I make, but sometimes people sue other people for random stuff that you can't predict.
What are your opinions about this topic? Is it really not a big deal? Is there any resource with legal advice for developers on how to avoid potential lawsuits? Is it definitely recommended to publish as a company?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
I'm not a legal expert by any means, and if I was in your situation I would be in the exact same doubt you are, and I'm not sure there's a way out. Like you said, suing is unpredictable. However, I know a few developers with small apps on the store that never had any trouble. So maybe if you intend to write apps for the rest of your life, it's a good idea. If it's a one-time thing, maybe not. Sorry I can't help you.
Cidinho said:
I'm not a legal expert by any means, and if I was in your situation I would be in the exact same doubt you are, and I'm not sure there's a way out. Like you said, suing is unpredictable. However, I know a few developers with small apps on the store that never had any trouble. So maybe if you intend to write apps for the rest of your life, it's a good idea. If it's a one-time thing, maybe not. Sorry I can't help you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your reply! It's okay if you're not a legal expert, I appreciate any opinion on this topic . I know already what the "best" thing to do would be from a legal perspective: create an LLC to be on the safe side. However, with this thread I intend to get the feel of the community, from the developers perspective: what's the general practice, any kind of advice to avoid trouble, etc...
About what my plans are, well I guess that the best way to put it is that I want to try, see how it goes, and if I see I can make decent income then keep doing it.
My dilemma is, then, is it worth creating a company just to try? Probably not, and most likely everything would be fine (I would do my best to stay out of trouble), but what if something actually goes wrong? This things can be unpredictable...
Maybe developers with some experience can advise on terms and conditions to use to protect the developer as much as possible. Like putting in the app's description stuff like "I'm not responsible if bla bla bla"... (this would be an example to avoid problems in case the app "breaks" someone's device).
I don't know, maybe I'm a little paranoid, but since I'm new to Android Development I'd like to know what developers with experience do in this matter.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
lebertian said:
Thank you for your reply! It's okay if you're not a legal expert, I appreciate any opinion on this topic . I know already what the "best" thing to do would be from a legal perspective: create an LLC to be on the safe side. However, with this thread I intend to get the feel of the community, from the developers perspective: what's the general practice, any kind of advice to avoid trouble, etc...
About what my plans are, well I guess that the best way to put it is that I want to try, see how it goes, and if I see I can make decent income then keep doing it.
My dilemma is, then, is it worth creating a company just to try? Probably not, and most likely everything would be fine (I would do my best to stay out of trouble), but what if something actually goes wrong? This things can be unpredictable...
Maybe developers with some experience can advise on terms and conditions to use to protect the developer as much as possible. Like putting in the app's description stuff like "I'm not responsible if bla bla bla"... (this would be an example to avoid problems in case the app "breaks" someone's device).
I don't know, maybe I'm a little paranoid, but since I'm new to Android Development I'd like to know what developers with experience do in this matter.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I asked an accountancy company the same question and they said that it depends in the expected income. In my situation they suggested me to continue as a developer.
It does depend how much you will be making. If you make $1000 per year, it is hardly worth registering a company and suffering the extra tax headache it will give you. You will probably need to pay an accountant to sort it out. However once you get to a certain price point (I would say $15,000+) then you can get certain tax advantages, plus the limited liability that a company would give you.
Personally, I feel that the only time I'd change my developer name to a company name is if I'm working with another person on my apps. If it's just me working on my apps, then I'll keep the developer name as my real life name
I really appreciate all the responses. Is there any place where I can find guidelines to stay out of legal trouble when publishing mobile apps? I know the obvious ones, of course, but I'm sure that there are things that aren't so obvious and that they're good to keep in mind while developing an app... Or any advice that you guys have would be helpful too!
I have been back and forth with both T-Mobile and Sony tech support about unlocking my Sony Xperia Z Model C6606 4.3 T-Mobile variant Build 10.4.C.0.814. When I entered the service code '*#* blah blah blah' it says unlock = No. Not possible. No beans. Sorry Charlie. No luck, no joy.
The following is a paraphrase of the exchanges with these two corporate giants, modified for brevity and the hope that the crushingly depressing outcome might be presented as slightly humorous.
I asked them, 'How do you update the system software when new releases are available?' They replied that there are 'special codes' that unlock the bootloader for the update. And I thought to myself, Really? Isn't that special.
I remarked that if it was possible for them to remotely upgrade the system software (read: kernel), then it is possible for them to remotely unlock the bootloader. The song and dance routine that followed was remarkable. In essence, they declined. Not possible. No beans. Sorry Charlie. No luck, no joy.
I said, if you won't unlock the bootloader now that we have established that you can, would you downgrade the system software to something where I can unlock the bootloader? Again, they declined and left me with nothing more than visions of 'special codes' dancing in my head. Not possible. No beans. Sorry Charlie. No luck, no joy.
My only question is, "Why not? Why on some and not on others?"
This is what you call company's politic, and people who work for it need to fallow this politic, even if its bad for consumer.
This world that we created for our self and we need to deal with it, just like with government.
There are codes for maintaining device(not only codes that you type on phone), that cellular companies get from phone manufactures to make their branded systems, just like their get bunch of other tools that help them doing this.
But its not like SIM-lock code and it cant be thrown around like peace of paper, because:
1) its can be used in bad way(hacking, unlocking etc)
2)it could be used by people that would sell that code to others and make money from it(illegally).
3) It breach of contract that you ACCEPTED buying that phone from t-mobile or as a free handset.
When you bought that phone you accepted agreement that you get with phone AND your operator, that clearly say that you can't mess with your phone system in any way that its said in contract and system it self, and you can use your phone as you get it.
Any modifications break terms of use, and you actually lost any rights to even ask support for help.
My point is that asking support for that code is actually really stupid, because their work doesnt include unlocking devices for modifications that user want to make(illegally looking from contract perspective), As far as device is not damaged or doesnt have problems, you actually have no reason write to them.
Its like going to car dealer where you bought car, and ask to remove engine because you want to put there new one... They totally dont care because this is not part of deal you made with them and its just nothing more than breaking regulations.
It is forum about modifications of phones, but we actually all make silent agreement that we KNOW that we can lost warranty and dont have rights for official support when we modify our phones. I think you forgot about that
Agreements have Caveats
Hi Akinaro,
Thank you for your reply. You are of course correct in what you have pointed out concerning contracts and agreements. It is something of which we all (well, most of us) are aware and accept as a matter of course. But as the title of this response indicates, these agreements are a two-way street.
You have made a number of false assumptions in your post. That's OK. Perhaps I wasn't clear and gave you the wrong impression. Let me start now by saying that dealing with customer and tech support on these issues was not 'stupid'. You are NOT correct in presuming or insinuating that I have forgotten anything about the nature of these agreements, that I have entered into any binding agreements in bad faith, that I have broken any binding agreements, that I were considering breaking any binding agreements or that I might encouraging others to break any binding agreements.
In this case, the phone in question is not subject to a warranty agreement, a purchase agreement or even a use agreement. It has been superseded in all aspects by another phone. It is fully and completely my property. However it does not maintain any monetary value, as the screen is broken and the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the device. It's only value is in re-purposing it or using it for R&D. In it's currently locked state, the potential for both is limited.
When dealing with both the OEM and the carrier's tech support departments, I enumerated all of the conditions detailed above. I informed them that my interests in unlocking the device were personal and developmental in nature. In this they're responses were sympathetic and even conciliatory. We ALL understood that there was no breach of contractual terms taking place. Their actions in dealing with me confirm this simple fact. Plus, it is in their collective best interests to support independent R&D, even on older devices, as I'm sure you are aware. The reasons are manifold and beyond the scope of this OP post.
I apologize if I was unclear: I never at any time asked that either of these entities reveal to me the confidential and proprietary codes that they use to flash locked phones. My point was simply that I knew that they existed; that they knew I knew; and that they could accomplish my request to flash my phone if they chose to do so. It is simply negotiating.
Both corporate entities have graciously met me half-way in my efforts to unlock the bootloader. T-Mobile reactivated the SIM for the express purpose of allowing the service call that disclosed the bootloader could NOT be unlocked by the normal software methods available to the user. They didn't have to do that and I am grateful. Sony has developed a comprehensive online method for determining and delivering unlock codes to their phones that can be unlocked in this manner. Again, I am grateful to them for going this far. But this is not the same thing as unlocking my phone. Both of them have the means and methods available to do so. It is their choice to do so or not to do so. That is why you should call and negotiate. The worst that can happen (if you haven't broken any contracts or voided your warranty) is that they will say no.
I am perfectly within my rights to be disappointed that I didn't accomplish my goal. Likewise, it is completely understandable for me to wonder why they haven't fully implemented a plan to unlock all 4.3 'Zs'. I can even complain about it if I want. But I would rather that people smarter than I offer up new tactics and strategies to try. I don't want to give up just yet.
Akinaro said:
This is what you call company's politic, and people who work for it need to fallow this politic, even if its bad for consumer.
This world that we created for our self and we need to deal with it, just like with government.
There are codes for maintaining device(not only codes that you type on phone), that cellular companies get from phone manufactures to make their branded systems, just like their get bunch of other tools that help them doing this.
But its not like SIM-lock code and it cant be thrown around like peace of paper, because:
1) its can be used in bad way(hacking, unlocking etc)
2)it could be used by people that would sell that code to others and make money from it(illegally).
3) It breach of contract that you ACCEPTED buying that phone from t-mobile or as a free handset.
When you bought that phone you accepted agreement that you get with phone AND your operator, that clearly say that you can't mess with your phone system in any way that its said in contract and system it self, and you can use your phone as you get it.
Any modifications break terms of use, and you actually lost any rights to even ask support for help.
My point is that asking support for that code is actually really stupid, because their work doesnt include unlocking devices for modifications that user want to make(illegally looking from contract perspective), As far as device is not damaged or doesnt have problems, you actually have no reason write to them.
Its like going to car dealer where you bought car, and ask to remove engine because you want to put there new one... They totally dont care because this is not part of deal you made with them and its just nothing more than breaking regulations.
It is forum about modifications of phones, but we actually all make silent agreement that we KNOW that we can lost warranty and dont have rights for official support when we modify our phones. I think you forgot about that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but my point is still valid.
You still asking support, that is made for helping with damaged/inoperative devices in way as guarantee say it, for unsupported access to device that is not part of ANY agreement that you accepted buying this phone.
People you talked with can be nice or not, can understand that its personal and for developing purpose. Its all doesnt matter because its company politic.
Even if I support full access to device that you bought(after all ITS YOURS) in other way I know that more than half of people that would see that they have access to it, they would start messing with it and then whine that their phones doesnt work.
In fact, actually damn good part of post on XDA is such whining of people that messed their phone and now they cry that it doesnt work and ask for help, and saddest part is that they never learn lesson from it so its never ending story.
So again, asking support for unlocking your phone, as far as its not SIM-lock, its useless and just silly.
You can ask technician from support if he could do this "on the side, out of records", but you would need +10 charisma for that if you dont know him, or some cash, that for most of time work. I actually loots of time just paid technician to make it on the side, especially when you dont need to wait few days for phone, few minutes, few hours and they fix/unlock your phone without a problem.
Or just find someone who would help you unlock it in different way... but XZ is just old and not "trendy" so no one care anymore and its hard to find anyone here.
OK Akinaro. That's enough with the ad hominem attacks. You have accused me of everything from trying to steal company secrets to unethical breaches of contractual agreements. All I did was try to negotiate some assistance and report on my progress.
Point 1. I am still a long term customer of my carrier. They encourage me to seek their help. So I don't care if you like it or not. What you characterize as abuse or illegal behavior, THEY characterize as completely acceptable.
Point 2. I am a consumer of the OEM's products. They encourage me to seek their help. So I don't care if you like it or not. What you characterize as abuse or illegal behavior, THEY characterize as completely acceptable.
Point 3. This is a development forum. My OP is within bounds and my responses to you have been civil. So I don't care if you like it or not. What you characterize as abuse or illegal behavior, THEY characterize as completely acceptable.
So far, you have accused me of everything from unethical acts and intentions to stupidity and whining. You haven't said anything of any real value. You haven't contributed any constructive ideas how I might get them to help. Nor have you been able to substantiate your wild accusations with anything that resemble facts or logic. So no, you haven't made a single valid point.
You realize that Im just writing obvious things? Because idea of asking official support for unlocking bootloader is just weird.
You can be mad that from your perspective my point is not valid.... because core of your question contain no fricking point at all.
You asked support for unlocking: They said they dont do this.
In your phone manual there is mention: "Any change or modification not expressly approved by Sony may void the user's authority to operate the equipment.", and I think access to bootloader just to have fun with kernel is part of that "modification"
There is about 1000 topic about bootloader on XDA, and they all mention the same thing: if it say no, its no. Simple.
So what you expect them to do? What you expect from XDA when you made this topic? All we can say is obvious thing that everyone know: ts not possible, especially with help of official support, that is not made for that.
Before you even bought your phone you should think and check your device, I always ask to turn phone on before buy it, its a matter of typing *#*#service#*#* to check it, its about 9sec to find bootloader section.
You can be mad at me, Sony or Obama, or anyone who is trendy right now, No one care. All what I write, is obvious things that everyone known.
Noob Friendly.
Hello again Akinaro,
While I am absolutely sure that you have a great deal of technical knowledge about phones (far more than I), it is a poor excuse for rude behavior, engaging in character assassination, making baseless assumptions or libelous accusations. A quick read through your post reveals a bias that is based entirely on a false perception and not the facts. So please allow me to address these directly.
You said, "You asked support for unlocking: They said they dont do this."
FACT: Some T-Mobile Xperia Z phone have a bootloader that IS unlockable (something of which you are well aware). The "*#*#service#*#*" service proves the point. Furthermore, they will supply you with a link to the OEM developers website that will unlock your bootloader while giving you detailed instructions on how to go about it. So NO! I said nothing of the sort.
You said, "In your phone manual there is mention: 'Any change or modification not expressly approved by Sony may void the user's authority to operate the equipment.'"
FACT: That's not what 'express approval' is, means or implies. Sony's assistance to developers in unlocking the bootloader of their devices disproves your unfounded assumptions. It is prima facie evidence of Sony's explicit approval. There are things that a developer can do to an unlocked phone that are either legal or illegal or acceptable and unacceptable. Examples:
1.) Modifying a phone's operating system for purposes such as changing the look and feel of the device, for automation or for the addition of certain desirable features found in other OS releases is (within certain bounds); Acceptable.
2.) Modifying the device to circumvent regulatory restrictions or carrier use agreements?; Not Acceptable.
My point to the OP was that they DO unlock SOME Xperia Z phones regardless of model; that they DO provide assistance in doing so; but that they CAN unlock them all and that they don't explain why the won't. My point is that there is an underlying factor that remains unexplained and I thought that an explanation was worth pursuing. DID YOU NOT GET THAT? I consider this question interesting and the answers murky at best. Why some and not all? Had I NOT asked them why and why not, that would have been stupid. Had I not sought clarification here at a forum that is dedicated to developers, that would have been stupid. Expecting that the OP would have been answered with rational discussion or friendly advice: OBVIOUSLY STUPID.
Alas, I am not mad at you for having your opinion no matter how misguided. I will ALSO refrain from calling you names or implying that, your position, your actions, or your opinions are 'stupid', 'pointless' or 'illegal'. If you want to discuss the topic, fine. Otherwise, please cut the crap. I'll cop to being ignorant. Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, not so much.
Stupid is NOT trying to remedy ignorance by seeking answers. You don't like the OP? Then go read another. You want to just be hostile? It say a lot about you - not me.
Akinaro said:
You realize that Im just writing obvious things? Because idea of asking official support for unlocking bootloader is just weird.
You can be mad that from your perspective my point is not valid.... because core of your question contain no fricking point at all.
You asked support for unlocking: They said they dont do this.
In your phone manual there is mention: "Any change or modification not expressly approved by Sony may void the user's authority to operate the equipment.", and I think access to bootloader just to have fun with kernel is part of that "modification"
There is about 1000 topic about bootloader on XDA, and they all mention the same thing: if it say no, its no. Simple.
So what you expect them to do? What you expect from XDA when you made this topic? All we can say is obvious thing that everyone know: ts not possible, especially with help of official support, that is not made for that.
Before you even bought your phone you should think and check your device, I always ask to turn phone on before buy it, its a matter of typing *#*#service#*#* to check it, its about 9sec to find bootloader section.
You can be mad at me, Sony or Obama, or anyone who is trendy right now, No one care. All what I write, is obvious things that everyone known.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thread closed at the request of the OP.