I have flashed my unlocked Vodafone 750v used on AT&T in US several times to
1.15-VFE
firmware 1.52.3.00
How do I flash to a more stable radio ROM?
I have such bad reception after about 3 months of an otherwise initially very stable ROM, that the phone part is barely usable now. My present ROM otherwise stable with no need for resets, but I have noticed the phoen reception gets worse with time, has anyone else noticed?
I am almost ready to give up on the Treo 750 if I can find a comparable device with threaded SMS & HSDPA
Read post 3 of http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=368131
and http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_ExtractedRadioRoms
Changing your radio will NOT fix broken SIM cards, WiFi problems, Bluetooth issues or external GPS problems, Nor will it magic up a signal from nowhere if you live in a poor coverage area It may however resolve some network connectivity issues or help improve data speeds.
Having the latest release does NOT necessarily mean it is the best ROM for your network or country. In extreme cases a later radio may introduce more issues than it fixes so treat all upgrades with caution.
It is (in extreme cases) possible for the radio firmware to kill actual radio hardware if something is badly wrong or a radio firmware is buggy. This is rarely seen but is potentially a real risk.
Any update that drives the hardware "harder" in order to increase the gain of both the transmit element and recieve pre-amp element in any radio module is usually at the expense of the lifespan of the radio device. To put it simply, high output devices tend to have shorter lives than low output devices.
Problems with the device emitting more heat than usual, shorter battery life, long drop out periods where the device looks for a network or other "odd" intermittent radio issues can be a warning that something may not be right.
Recently the battery consumption of popular radio stack versions have been tested and compared. See this thread for more details.
Finally - always experiment cautiously, be aware of the risks and minimise them and read other peoples experiences on the forums before just taking the latest image and flashing it (i.e cross reference posts, see where posters are reporting from and take some proper time to do some research BEFORE considering flashing a new image - this way you are less likely to encounter problems and should have a good idea of how an upgrade will perform before exposing your device to any risk).
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Click to collapse
fatality88 said:
Read post 3 of http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=368131
and http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_ExtractedRadioRoms
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Click to collapse
Thanks fatality, that looks like a Hermes radio ROM, does it work on the Treo 750?
10 charcaters
Yeah, Use the KaiserCustomRUU utility - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=334890
Place one of the Hermes roms (.nbh) files in the same folder and execute and follow instructions
Hermes and Treo use the same chipset and the Hermes ones I have tried (3 or 4 of the latest) have worked fine
You will need to hardSPL your device though - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=334100
Some roms will work differently and you should be able to find one suitable for your carrier/data/battery needs...
ps. i of course hold nothing resonsible but i have got into no trouble myself...
Yes I have searched before you ask.....
I have installed the stock official Radio ROM (1.65.16.25) as well as the later1.65.24.36 version and now the 1.71.09.01 version that has recently been posted, all of which seem to be very similar for GSM performance.
Now I am not convinced any of them actually do anything to the GPS receiver. I have had really quick GPS fixes with all of the Radios installed and I have also had really slow fixes. There doesn't seem to be any real consistency so I am not convinced upgrading the Radio ROM does anything with the GPS, I am sure it does with GSM, GPRS, 3G & HSDPA.
Does anyone have any technical knowledge as to what actually gets upgraded with the Radio ROM and which systems does it affect (i.e. Bluetooth, GPS etc)? Not just observations and perception?
Andy
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
DaveShaw said:
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
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Click to collapse
Its funny but... I can say the same thing:
For me - technicaly radio shouldn't affect camera but it does thats the trick.
DaveShaw said:
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
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Click to collapse
Cheers Dave I hadn't seen that post by viper. To be honest that was the conclusion I was coming to. I am pretty sure the differences in GPS fix times is just peoples perception and atmospheric conditions at the time.
Andy
DaveShaw said:
I can't guarantee whether viper is right or not, but I've read all 10 of his posts and he seems to know his stuff.
Here is his take on this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2412197&postcount=39
However,
I have seem many people claim great GPS performance with new radios, especially the NIKI ones.
I don't use GPS that often to make my own guess.
Thanks
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After trying multiple radios I can say that radio definitely DOES somehow affect the GPS. How can be the different results from different radios explained then? How can I get the GPS fix with one radio in ~5 minutes and with another in ~15 seconds?
Strangely I have two Kaisers, at the moment both have identical everything and side by side the GPS fixes can vary greatly and it's not like one is always quicker than the other.
With regards to the camera being affected by the GPS? Again I think this is down to peoples warped perception.....
Andy
ADB100 said:
Strangely I have two Kaisers, at the moment both have identical everything and side by side the GPS fixes can vary greatly and it's not like one is always quicker than the other.
With regards to the camera being affected by the GPS? Again I think this is down to peoples warped perception.....
Andy
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Click to collapse
Back in the early kaiser days, if you had the wrong radio you had no sound and camera problems. (See the title of this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=349375)
Thanks
Dave
DaveShaw said:
Back in the early kaiser days, if you had the wrong radio you had no sound and camera problems. (See the title of this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=349375)
Thanks
Dave
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Click to collapse
Yes Dave, I have previously read that thread, however I think the move from WM6 to WM6.1 required more fundamental changes - maybe memory locations affecting why the Radio ROM had to be a certain revision or later.
What got me onto this was all the replies about GPS (& camera) performance increases due to a new Radio ROM. With my experience I have simply not seen the monumental (as reported by some people) performance improvements (fix times) when I upgraded the Radio ROM
As I said I have two Kaisers side by side here, both with identical everything and the GPS fix times varies considerably between the two.
Andy
Interesting question - I was one of those who noticed real problems with my GPS after the original HTC update to 6.1, and had really poor performance for weeks. I then upgraded my radio to the new version HTC released as part of a revised version of the same ROM update (going from 1.65.16.25 to 1.65.17.56) and immediately noticed a definite improvement.
My GPS still isn't perfect, sometimes it takes a minute or so longer than I'd like to get a fix, but I can say that in the exact same situations, and over a few weeks testing with both versions, installing the newer radio definitely improved matters for me and achieved consistently better results. Of course there could be various other explanations, like the actual process of flashing a new radio somehow resetting/improving some unknown factor, but either way there's no doubt in my mind that the GPS is now more robust and reliable than it was previously, and the radio update really is the only variable in my case.
I know many may suspect some placebo effect, but for the record I did try a whole range of other supposed "cures" like running GPS Test, changing TomTom settings, hard resetting, flashing a different SPL etc etc, without imagining any improvement afterwards.
Sadly True
I have been flashing daily for 3 weeks now, sometimes multiple times daily, while on vacation to get the most reliable GPS signal for driving and I cannot upgrade to 6.1 roms because of the greatly slower fix times. I have tried ALL the newer radios, SPL's, fixes and tweaks, and the 1.27.XX radios still get the quickest fix and have the strongest reception. I have tried daily resets and gps cold fixes quite often to get an average time and heres my results. Newer 6.1 radios cold fix (first fix after hard-reset) around 3-5 minutes and older 6.0 radios cold fix around 2-3 minutes. Yes there were some short times and some longer times but that is the average of testing daily after flashing repeatedly. The difference is most noticeable when I use GPS Tool because it shows more details on the strength of the signal. The older 1.27.XX radio just seem to see more satellites right off the bat and the newer radios take 60-90 seconds before even seeing a single satellite. I am glad people are finally recognizing this as an important issue because I upgraded to this phone primarily for the internal GPS. Now that the kaiser driver problem is winding down maybe some great minds can work on this problem also.
To right radios affect GPS performance
myteematt said:
I cannot upgrade to 6.1 roms because of the greatly slower fix times. I have tried ALL the newer radios, SPL's, fixes and tweaks, and the 1.27.XX radios still get the quickest fix and have the strongest reception.
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Click to collapse
It's true in this case about the oldies being goodies - I agree the GPS with WM 6.0 and those 1.27 series radios was ahem... miles better.
Why do I suspect that the 1.27 series Radios for WM 6.0 were provided to HTC by Qualcomm but they had to actually come up with their own for WM 6.1 - I may be wrong, it's just a hunch.
Now that the kaiser driver problem is winding down maybe some great minds can work on this problem also.
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Click to collapse
The interesting thing is that (I remember reading somewhere) aspects of GFX Acceleration can/could be coded into these MSM 7200 Radios so with both that and a once and for all GPS cure, the opportunities are immense for someone who knows what they're doing with Radio programming and development. Thats one reason why I was glad to see viperbjk has appeared here. There's no doubt about it as far as I can tell that Radios affect GPS performance and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
This is guess work, without that much understanding as to the way the device performs GPS operations (or any other low level machine operations), so feel free to shoot me down...
Could the Radio "operate" at different speeds, i.e. the 1.27 radios process instructions/operations much faster than the latest 6.1 ones?
Could parts of the radio be indirectly used when performing a GPS fix?
If so this would mean operations performed during GPS by the radio, slow down actual GPS operations?
Just an idea
Dave
We might be veering slightly out of focus here - because of course, if you compare 6.0 ROMs (and radios) with 6.1 ROMs (and radios) then there's a huge number of not necessarily radio-related factors that come into the mix, not least 6.1 itself, and HTC's implementation of it.
Notwithstanding the fact that it's impossible to use 1.27 radios with 6.1 and vice versa, it could easily be argued that a 1.27 radio would not improve GPS performance on a 6.1 ROM, and that a 1.65 radio would provide excellent GPS on a 6.0 ROM - it simply can't be proved either way.
What can be said, is that when I changed the radio - and only the radio - on the same 6.1 ROM, I found the GPS performance had improved. Not so much that it equalled 6.0 performance, but a significant improvement in any case, and enough to prove to me that (in answer to the topic) the radio ROM definitely does affect the GPS.
GPS Speed
Not sure if radio effect gps but I loaded the D3D driver and these did slow gps lock down by a lot, removed driver and gps lock went back to being instant.
Hope this help.
A no other variable example
Boinng said:
We might be veering slightly out of focus here - because of course, if you compare 6.0 ROMs (and radios) with 6.1 ROMs (and radios) then there's a huge number of not necessarily radio-related factors that come into the mix, not least 6.1 itself, and HTC's implementation of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you are right that this example isn't a very strong case because there are lots of other variables. Just like you though I made that Radio only upgrade from HTCs initial WM 6.1 release to their latest one with only a different radio and noticed the difference straight away. For those who doubt the effect of the Radio on GPS performance, If everything else is the same (and the ROM itself is the same) what else could explain the difference in performance under the same sorts of daily use in similar weather and locations? It's crystal clear to me.
Well, for me, it isn't crystal clear
First of all, I do not know much about HTC so far, I just learned to understand what's going on. But regarding the radio, there is no difference in what I've seen so far.
Ok .... some technical explanations :
1. Radio CAN affect GPS reception as far as AGPS is involved.
2. Radio does NOT affect the way GPS is recieved.
Why ?
AGPS (MSM Chipset) can be used for getting
a) position fixes via mobile towers
b) recieve GPS fixation database via GPRS/EDGE etc.
This can speed up first GPS reception lock a lot.
But the radio does not affect the reception of the GPS reciever (chipset by infineon or surf I suppose).
GPS is normally controlled by WM driver. It could be controlled by AMSS (radio) but that is VERY unlikely because changes always have to be resigned (takes a lot of time) and gps-drivers would have to be reprogrammed for MSM chipset (very unlikely).
It will take a deeper research to be sure.
Comparing the same condition parameters isn't precise enough.
To be sure that radio driver affects GPS reception, you would have to disable radio by itself, especially AGPS.
Conclusion :
Radio can speed up updating fixation database using AGPS.
Radio can also offer faster positioning than GPS using AGPS, although not as accurate.
But as long as a surf/infineon gps chipset is used, there is no way radio speeds up or influences GPS reception in any way
Hope this answers some questions.
Cya,
Viper BJK
It's a Qualcomm chip that drives the GPS. And who knows what a Radio does, what underlying functionality it facilitates. At this piont, I take it you were just guessing, viper?
Good guesses as anyone I guess, just wanted to correct you on the GPS. I wish it were a SirfStar III chip.
viperbjk said:
But as long as a surf/infineon gps chipset is used, there is no way radio speeds up or influences GPS reception in any way
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Click to collapse
It isn't. The GPS baseband processing takes place in the main Qualcomm chip as shown by their product sheet. So to me it seems logical that the low level GPS processing code would be part of the radio firmware, therefore explaining the performance changes as they mess up with the code and possibly change their algorithms or simply the priority of the tasks the radio chip has to execute. Might be a power consumption issue too, as at least under the WM6 radios the current draw from the GPS is really significant, much higher than a usual dedicated (SiRF, MTK,...) chipset. Maybe they changed the SW under 6.1 to draw less power, leading to lower performance...
Also, as AGPS often messes up things (many people not being able to use the GPS anymore with it on), I'm pretty sure that all the users who reported different performance had it off anyway.
It could be controlled by AMSS (radio) but that is VERY unlikely because changes always have to be resigned (takes a lot of time) and gps-drivers would have to be reprogrammed for MSM chipset (very unlikely).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To me the GPS code is as said in the radio firmware, and the actual HW drivers (given by Qualcomm) are compiled in it as well. Then, the GPS is presented to WM as a simple COM port i.e transparently so no particular driver is needed for WM itself. So the only part that would change when a change of behavior is required would be.. the radio firmware, confirming users' experiences.
Personally I still run WM6, and always get between 15 and 30sec fix times.
Small update :
For best evaluation of Sirf chipsets, I recommend
http://w5.nuinternet.com/s660100031/SirfTech.htm
I'll see if I can find anything similiar for Infineon chipsets.
Learning curve
viperbjk said:
Well, for me, it isn't crystal clear
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Don't get me wrong, other programming aspects about this aren't clear to me, just the fact that the Radio includes driver code for the GPS and has a direct effect on GPS performance. As already mentioned by others the GPS hardware is within the Qualcomm chipset and is not provided by separate hardware.
First of all, I do not know much about HTC so far, I just learned to understand what's going on. But regarding the radio, there is no difference in what I've seen so far.
Ok .... some technical explanations :
1. Radio CAN affect GPS reception as far as AGPS is involved.
2. Radio does NOT affect the way GPS is recieved.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I've never used AGPS (the native HTC ROMS without additional tweaking software have this turned off by default), I have no experience to report in this regard. I'm unsure what 2. actually means. I'm sure the statement "Radio does NOT affect GPS reception" would be incorrect though as in my experience radio changes alone can make big differences to how Tomtom and Google Maps behave. If the radio has different priorities or reduces the current/power available for GPS reception then it seems clear to me that this will alter the strength of GPS reception although maybe not the 'way it's received'. I see reducing the current available for the GPS hardware as a bit like reducing the diameter of a cars fuel line - it may end up being counterproductive. As long as the programming code results in efficient execution of GPS functioning, I'm happy for it to get all the power it needs. It's only if power is used to compensate for inefficient execution of GPS functioning that I'd have reservations about power consumption.
Why ?
AGPS (MSM Chipset) can be used for getting
a) position fixes via mobile towers
b) recieve GPS fixation database via GPRS/EDGE etc.
This can speed up first GPS reception lock a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First GPS lock times were fine with my TyTN II in its original form and that didn't use AGPS. I'd be quite happy just to restore that level of performance again without relying on AGPS at all. I have started my TyTN IIs GPS up in some far flung locations where there was no phone reception at all and under WM 6.0, even then I had cold lock times of about 25 seconds as long as there was a clear view of the sky.
But the radio does not affect the reception of the GPS reciever (chipset by infineon or surf I suppose).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe not when the GPS reception is dealt with by separate hardware but the TyTN IIs GPS is integrated into its MSM 720x chipset. Regarding your latest post, I doubt GPS functionality is part of the ATI Imageon type functionality in the MSM720x chipset, it'll be separate areas of the silicon that handle this (I presume thats what you're referring to with reference to infineon).
I look forward to what you may accomplish viperbjk when you become familiar with this hardware. The opportunities for someone who understands these chipsets and associated radio programming inside and out are huge.
Im from israel and my cellular carrier is Pelephone and i dunno what radio is best for my reception, wf, bt, gps....
can any1 suggest me which radio should i use??
Thnx in advance
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=506034
this radio works well
hm, that question could only be answered from someone geographically near you, because it depends
what might work for me here could be total disaster for you (slightly exaggerated of course)
with radios you should give it a try and compare signal strength and battery life
my example: I flashed 1.17* w/o getting better reception than with 1.16* radio, but was of the impression my battery drained way faster than before
additional factor: rilphone.dll (or more precisely combo radio + ril)
for comparison:
here
here
here
here
here
here
I think you get the idea even just quoting a very few on the subject
Mod. edit: not dev related, moved to general, CLOSED
Hi,
please excuse my stupid question - I'm a newbie and English is not my first language:
What exactly does the term "radio" refer to? I only know it as in "listening to a radio station". Is that it or does the term actually refer to the cell phone signals?
I guess the answer to the first question also helps with the remaining questions I have:
There are tons of threads about flashing of the radio (like: "[Resources] Rhodium GSM Radio Collection"), but what do they actually do?
Which radio version should I get (I'm from Germany using O2)? The above mentioned thread says I need to look up the region in the wiki, but the wiki leads back to that exact same thread.
Thanks in advance, Google just gave me a bunch of sites about streaming radio to my phone, but somehow I don't think that is the whole story.
Edit: I did some more research and then I googled for GSM, I got on to the right track. So this is definitely not about listening to my favorite station on better quality.
However, I still wonder why to upgrade and if so, which version...
The cell phone "radio" refers to both the hardware and the software used to send/receive signals over the cell network. GPS also uses the same radio. When talking about flashing the radio, the software component of this is being referred to. Flashing a different radio can (possibly) improve cell reception, as well as battery life (phone constantly trying to connect will drain the battery, flashing a new radio can help alleviate this).
What radio is "best" if often geographically dependent. Also, the newer radios tend to work better than older ones, but that's not always the case. Perhaps somebody in Germany can provide guidance on this radio works the best in your area.
redpoint73 said:
The cell phone "radio" refers to both the hardware and the software used to send/receive signals over the cell network. GPS also uses the same radio. When talking about flashing the radio, the software component of this is being referred to. Flashing a different radio can (possibly) improve cell reception, as well as battery life (phone constantly trying to connect will drain the battery, flashing a new radio can help alleviate this).
What radio is "best" if often geographically dependent. Also, the newer radios tend to work better than older ones, but that's not always the case. Perhaps somebody in Germany can provide guidance on this radio works the best in your area.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see, thank you!
So since I do want to make the best use of the GPS (hopefully with TomTom), this seems to be a rather important issue then.