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Hey guys, I have read many reviews where people complain about overheating and excessive amount of heat from the phone localized in one area. Based on the tear down provided by ifixit, there looks to be no EMI shield over the CPU/memory chip area unless it was removed before the photo was taken. But either way, I see that when assembled there is the metal backing to the LCD directly above it which would really dissipate the heat well.
Why not purchase some thin thermal pads and apply as necessary to transfer the heat to the metal frame directly above it. Even if there is an EMI shield over it, open it up (unless it's soldered making it harder) and put the thin thermal pad in there and on the outside of the shield.
Seems like a very simple solution to fix a pretty big problem. I don't have my hands on a Nexus 4 and am unsure if I will in the future but if I ever do I will definitely try this and provide results and instructions on how to do the same.
Or LG could design the phone better.
johnny13oi said:
Hey guys, I have read many reviews where people complain about overheating and excessive amount of heat from the phone localized in one area. Based on the tear down provided by ifixit, there looks to be no EMI shield over the CPU/memory chip area unless it was removed before the photo was taken. But either way, I see that when assembled there is the metal backing to the LCD directly above it which would really dissipate the heat well.
Why not purchase some thin thermal pads and apply as necessary to transfer the heat to the metal frame directly above it. Even if there is an EMI shield over it, open it up (unless it's soldered making it harder) and put the thin thermal pad in there and on the outside of the shield.
Seems like a very simple solution to fix a pretty big problem. I don't have my hands on a Nexus 4 and am unsure if I will in the future but if I ever do I will definitely try this and provide results and instructions on how to do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is not a bad idea actually, but i'm not too sure if the display will soffer about it
If only had a n4 to test it XD (i have some thermal pad lying around)
Venekor said:
Or LG could design the phone better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
InvalidUsername said:
Venekor said:
Or LG could design the phone better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We hack phones to try and make them work better on this website, did you know that?
Venekor said:
Or LG could design the phone better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While I agree with you, thermal pads are relatively cheap and the concerns about pressure on the LCD by another poster would be fine as long as you use a thinner thermal pad that doesn't compress too much after application. I have various thickness of thermal pads so as long as you use the correct one to apply just the right amount of pressure I can only see a large benefit from something so simple.
It would require opening the device and I am unsure if there are warranty voiding stickers in the phone. Some people are really happy with the phone and this is the only problem so I am merely just trying to provide a solution to the one problem remaining.
Thermal pads are to conduct heat from one surface (CPU) to another (heatsink). I can't say I agree with using the screen as a heatsink.
johnny13oi said:
While I agree with you, thermal pads are relatively cheap and the concerns about pressure on the LCD by another poster would be fine as long as you use a thinner thermal pad that doesn't compress too much after application. I have various thickness of thermal pads so as long as you use the correct one to apply just the right amount of pressure I can only see a large benefit from something so simple.
It would require opening the device and I am unsure if there are warranty voiding stickers in the phone. Some people are really happy with the phone and this is the only problem so I am merely just trying to provide a solution to the one problem remaining.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wasn't talking of the pressure but the heat that the backplade dissipate, maybe can damage the screen
I doubt it will help,
someone pointed out that the only trigger for thermal throttling is the battery temperature,
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=34224171&postcount=85
BakaPhoenix said:
I wasn't talking of the pressure but the heat that the backplade dissipate, maybe can damage the screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, i would guess the space there is to keep the heat from the screen...
If this phone runs hot it is most likely due to the glass acting as an insulator. Is there any venting anywhere? I bet much of the thermal issue could be solved with a well placed vent..
sent via xda premium with nexus 7-Xbox live-loneleppard add me
While I can see concerns about damaging the LCD due to the heat but I imagine heat spread over the entire surface of the phone is much better than localizing a much more intense heat in a smaller area. LCDs can withstand a decent amount of heat and a small arm chip spreading heat over the entire surface of the phone would be very minimal to no effect on the LCD. I can see great potential for damage allowing the heat to be confined to a small area (just the CPU and RAM sitting on each other) with no heat spreader or heat sink.
Well I guess we won't be overclocking this phone anytime time soon. And you know I was really hoping I could finally fry me some bacon strips on my way to work.
johnny13oi said:
While I can see concerns about damaging the LCD due to the heat but I imagine heat spread over the entire surface of the phone is much better than localizing a much more intense heat in a smaller area. LCDs can withstand a decent amount of heat and a small arm chip spreading heat over the entire surface of the phone would be very minimal to no effect on the LCD. I can see great potential for damage allowing the heat to be confined to a small area (just the CPU and RAM sitting on each other) with no heat spreader or heat sink.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Air is a very good thermal isolator, i read that many desktop ips lcs have a maximum teamp. of 35/40 C° so if if the cpu heats a lot it can create problems. I don't know how much is the max temp that this ips can withstand tough.
BakaPhoenix said:
Air is a very good thermal isolator, i read that many desktop ips lcs have a maximum teamp. of 35/40 C° so if if the cpu heats a lot it can create problems. I don't know how much is the max temp that this ips can withstand tough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really think this whole heat thing is a kernel issue at the moment. I remember owning the one x since very 1.26 or was it an earlier one? Either way, the phone would really get VERY hot. After a few updates i barely felt the heat. Maybe when playing games or whatever, all in all the updates solved the issue. I think google will manage to sort it out, i can't imagine them being that stupid.
I guess if you are concerned with the LCD becoming damaged then you could just put the thermal pad on the other side to make the whole motherboard (minus spring contacts) contact the glass back and spread the heat outside including the battery.
And yes air is a very good thermal insulator so all the heat is just getting trapped inside the phone. Gotta use some thermal pads to conduct that heat to a panel exposed to the outside.
These are all just suggestions that I would do if I were to have one in my hands right now.
johnny13oi said:
I guess if you are concerned with the LCD becoming damaged then you could just put the thermal pad on the other side to make the whole motherboard (minus spring contacts) contact the glass back and spread the heat outside including the battery.
And yes air is a very good thermal insulator so all the heat is just getting trapped inside the phone. Gotta use some thermal pads to conduct that heat to a panel exposed to the outside.
These are all just suggestions that I would do if I were to have one in my hands right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bottom line is if the SOC or N4 design is flawed internally which created thermal throttling, then there won't be much help for inserting thermal pads. I have tried this with HD2 when it had thermal runaway. There was a huge thread figuring out how to cure it by many methods as far as putting the motherboard in the oven to melt the soldering at exact time and temperature. The thermal pads method only decreased a few Fahrenheit which wasn't enough to cure if there was a thermal problems. My HD2's SOC was made by Qualcomm. Something definitely don't add up with bad benchmarks scores, thermal problems. Could future updates cure this? Only time can tell.
I've done something similar with my OCed Samsung i9000, but instead of using thermal pads, I used thermal paste. Similar to the Nexus 4 the cpu IC is sandwiched between the PCB and the metal chassis. The metal chassis becomes a massive heatsink for the CPU which dropped my CPU temp. by 10oC (~17oF) at maximum load.
After 9 months of use there hasn't been any damage or deterioration of the display screen (AMOLED).
Details can be found in the i9000 forum.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1605517
When I receive my Nexus 4 I plan to do something similar.
The only problem i can see with this method is warranty. I'm 100% sure that even if there is no warranty void stickers on the screws they won't accept to fix a phone that has been tinkered with
And try to wipe thermal paste without leaving any trace you will fail
Capt.PP said:
The bottom line is if the SOC or N4 design is flawed internally which created thermal throttling, then there won't be much help for inserting thermal pads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is not flawed as such, it is just overdimensioned.
In essence it is a double APQ8060A + quicker (more power hungry) GPU + additional management circuitry. So it should not surprise, that under full load (benchmarks) it burns through more than double of the usual dual core Krait phone power. While having similar dimensions/power dissipation capacity.
In their marketing Qualcomm positioned this SoC for Tablets. Now you have it in the phone. Is it bad? Not really, full power quadcore tasks is not a realistic task for a phone. And for a second or two (after this it does not matter anymore since your phone "lags") the existing cooling is perfectly adequate.
One thing where Qualcomm/LG/Google could do better are the GPU drivers. Which currently seem badly tuned.
As you already aware, there is a throttling problem with this phone. Really killing its potential.
I blame nvidia for making this chip 40nm and LG, not making a proper desing to dissipate the heat released by the SoC.
At default state, P880 behaves like a 100m sprinter. Fast at start, out of breath after the finish. That "finish" depends on the workload of the device and ambient temperature.
At very demanding games I can usually play about 10-15 minutes before serious lag.
This is not all off it.
Because of restrictive governor policies, some games that run smoothly on two core devices, runs like crap on this device. Default governor disables all but one core when there is load on graphics part. I assume this is also because of the attempt to prevent overheating.
So, the device is not running as advertised. This is my thought.
It seems, without serious underclocking and undervolting, one can not get a smooth experience from this device.
With the end of my warranty, I've started modifying the device. My aim is to keep the phone under heavy load with the highest speed as long as possible.
Before hardware level modification, I've rooted and BL unlocked the P880, thanks to great members of XDA.
I'm currently on stable version of CM 10.1.3. Stock kernel.
From what I've read and comfirm with my own experiments, there are two temp limits triggering the throttling. One is the battery, which is 43°C. Other one is the core or the SoC which is 71°C.
With these limiters, device is reaching its lowest speed of 475Mhz under 10 minutes @ 20-ish degrees celsius room temp. I use stability test v2.7 for achieving this. Under real life circumstances, e.g, games, this time differs between 10 to 20mins.
There is a warning on the battery. Says 40°C max. Isn't that too low for this kind of device? With the help of this software I can increase "temp_throttle_skin" value easily to 50°C. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2306980
With more headroom on the battery side, P880 drops no more to 475mhz up to 20 minutes of stress testing with Stability Test 2.7.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.into.stability
At 20th minute, battery was 45.5°C. 4 cores running @ 1000Mhz. Core varies between 67-71°C.
After a small mod of applying some Gelid GC-Extreme thermal compound over the metal piece installed on the SoC, I've got slightly better results.
At 20th minute with Stability test 2.7, classic mode, battery increased to 47.5°C , 4 cores stayed at 1200Mhz and never dropped to 1000 but still hitting 70°C. There is slightly better heat spread over the device.
SoC is not touching the main frame directly. Different from nexus 4, there is a small metal shield covering the Soc and memory. (Strange thing is, metal shielding has a hole over the memory part. There is a thermal sticker on that chip.) Only a small part of the metal shield is touching to the main frame. That is a weird material I've never seen before. Its surface looks like sponge but very hard to touch. Like sand paper. I applied the thermal paste on this material in hopes of filling the small gaps and achieving a better surface but it doesn't help so much. I think that rough surfaced material is not ideal to be there in the beginning.
I think, cutting some parts of that shield piece and placing thicker cu or alu sheet metal will be better approach.
I'm also planning to wait for some time for thermal paste to cure. From my experience with this same compound on the PC parts, it takes some time for best results.
All suggestions are welcome.
I also wonder what's your solutions for this throttling matter.
Here are the pics.
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--UPDATE--
First, I want to say thanks to everyone who has send a reply to this post.
I'm back with more modifications and updates.
I wasn't satisfied with my previous modifications which was a simple thermal compound addition.
A proper test can not be done with lack of a custom kernel which has advanced software adjustment possibilities and of course a tool to make the adjustments.
Now I'm on CM 10.1.3 Stable with WerewolfJB kernel v009 [04-29-2014]. Making the speed adjustments with Trickster MOD app. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bigeyes0x0.trickstermod
As for the modification, my first approach was replacing the thermal sticker with a copper plate.
Disassembling the P880 second time.
Notice the touch points of the mainframe.
The metal piece covering the SoC area and thermal sticker removed.
This metal piece between the main frame and SoC is an EMI shield and a heat medium which delays the heat transfer to the mainframe. If you attach the SoC directly to the mainframe, it makes better SoC cooling but battery gets very hot in return. This will eventually make the battery die quickly because heat is the number one enemy of the batteries.
If I could improve the heat transfer from SoC to both the mainframe and metal shielding piece, that might improve the cooling efficiency. That was what I wanted to find out before beginning to mod.
The thinnest copper piece I could find is 0.8mm thick.
0.8mm is too thick for a device which has 8.9mm overall thickness!
I was able to reassembly the device but that put a lot of stress both to the mainframe which has LCD on it and of course the fragile, over engineered, tightly packed PCB of the device. This was a bad idea.
I couldn't find thinner copper plates. At least this small amount.
Final solution came from an old slider style switch which has copper strips touching on each other. I 've found it laying around so destroyed it to get some copper strips, thin enough to use. After cutting to proper size, I've dealt with the corrosion first.
They are 0.35mm thick. I think this is the maximum that can be used without serious concerns.
I've applied thermal paste to both sides of the strips, cut the thermal sticker in half and put the thick part back on to the memory chip. This is the final design before reassembling the device.
I've prepared a test video. 20 minute stress run.
https://vimeo.com/97050916
My settings are stock. 1500mhz max speed with interactive governor.
This is the most torturing test. CPU+GPU test with gaming governor is nothing compared to 4 core stress test.
KSH2014 said:
snip
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you could disable the thermal throttling via an app (there is one in themes and apps section)
tegra overclock has the ability to disable (or change) temp throttling, and some of the kernels have removed throttling completely (atleast battery temp throttling, the one at 43 degrees)
Flying_Bear said:
you could disable the thermal throttling via an app (there is one in themes and apps section)
tegra overclock has the ability to disable (or change) temp throttling, and some of the kernels have removed throttling completely (atleast battery temp throttling, the one at 43 degrees)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wouldn't that be dangerous? Removing the limiters completely?
Nvidia tegra 3 SoC limit is 85°C. LG adjusted this to 71°C. Maybe this is because of some other parts may be affected with such a high temp. All components are very tightly packed there you know.
Completely removing the limit not seems logical to me.
Operation within or close to the original limits should be achieved.
This could be done with undervolt/underclocking like many of the others did. But I want to get the most out of the available mass of the device as a heat sink.
KSH2014 said:
Wouldn't that be dangerous? Removing the limiters completely?
Nvidia tegra 3 SoC limit is 85°C. LG adjusted this to 71°C. Maybe this is because of some other parts may be affected with such a high temp. All components are very tightly packed there you know.
Completely removing the limit not seems logical to me.
Operation within or close to the original limits should be achieved.
This could be done with undervolt/underclocking like many of the others did. But I want to get the most out of the available mass of the device as a heat sink.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you could leave temperature for shutdown. on 10a version of our software, LG had put 120c as temperature of shutdown (atleast that's what some people claimed, my device came with 10d), so having shutdown temp at 85 or 90 is safe (plus, i only hit this limit once, and that was with werewolf kernel which seems to have very high mpu voltage tables)
however i think throttling is useless - if you hit too high temperature, auto-shutdown will take care of any potential problem
I'll try t buy a little fan and connect it to 2 1.5 V batteries and stick it with sth... or ill buy another back cover and make a hole and stick this fan to it
gerciolisz said:
I'll try t buy a little fan and connect it to 2 1.5 V batteries and stick it with sth... or ill buy another back cover and make a hole and stick this fan to it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why not?
If applied correctly, that may be the COOLEST solution.
Now imagine if someone takes this:
mugen-power-4400mah-extended-battery-for-lg-optimus-4x-hd-p880-with-battery-door (google it)
There is enough room between the camera and battery for this:
sunonusa.com/pdf/mm_fan_catalog.pdf(google it)
Take the blower one. Drill a hole and a side opening to the back cover. Add a thin micro switch. Something like you use with the tip of your nail.
So you only switch it on while you playing and not in your pocket.
Voltage is nearly perfect for direct feed with internal battery. A little resistance could be used. Power connection can be done with thin terminals placed between battery contacts.
No further heat sink modification may be needed. Because, simcard and sd card holders get really hot when CPU is hot. Cooling that part with such a method may be sufficient to drop the temps a little bit.
Feasible? Considering the price, effort and patience... Maybe not. But imagination is always good.
@Flying_Bear
I'll also look into that auto shut down idea. Thanks!
All chips can take up to 250 °C for short time. They are soldered on that temp. So don't worry.
Sent from my LG-P880 using Tapatalk
KSH2014 said:
Wouldn't that be dangerous? Removing the limiters completely?
Nvidia tegra 3 SoC limit is 85°C. LG adjusted this to 71°C. Maybe this is because of some other parts may be affected with such a high temp. All components are very tightly packed there you know.
Completely removing the limit not seems logical to me.
Operation within or close to the original limits should be achieved.
This could be done with undervolt/underclocking like many of the others did. But I want to get the most out of the available mass of the device as a heat sink.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've reached like 95 C after changing throttle temps using tegra overclock app and overclocking (GPU [email protected], CPU [email protected]) with no undervolts.
It screwed my LCD up for about 30 minutes.Since then I'm using 85 C as CPU throttle temp and 50 C for battery and I faced no problems so far.So there is no point in keeping throttle temp at 71 C.I barely hit 80 C after undervolting anyway.
I'm pretty sure LG did this to keep the battery from runing out, not because it would actually damage any components.
+ New updates and a test video added to the original post.
Hi,
As I have to rebuild my z3+ anyway, due to screen/frame replacement, I would like to make sure that I create the best thermal sink possible between the CPU and the metal frame (to anyone else who is replacing the frame of their z3+/z4, watch out for the undersized copper heatsink/heatpipe on non-original metal backpanes. Use the original metal plate even if swapping out the frame).
Of course, whenever we tear down the phone and rebuild, we need to make sure to discard the original thermal pad and replace it. But what is the best replacement? As we can't be sure that the cpu is pressed firmly against the copper pad/pipe on the metal backpane, I have assumed that a silicone pad is the best option, but maybe this is not true. Can anyone recommend other options (thermal paste? /sims + paste?). What products have others used?
BR.
Learnincurve said:
Hi,
As I have to rebuild my z3+ anyway, due to screen/frame replacement, I would like to make sure that I create the best thermal sink possible between the CPU and the metal frame (to anyone else who is replacing the frame of their z3+/z4, watch out for the undersized copper heatsink/heatpipe on non-original metal backpanes. Use the original metal plate even if swapping out the frame).
Of course, whenever we tear down the phone and rebuild, we need to make sure to discard the original thermal pad and replace it. But what is the best replacement? As we can't be sure that the cpu is pressed firmly against the copper pad/pipe on the metal backpane, I have assumed that a silicone pad is the best option, but maybe this is not true. Can anyone recommend other options (thermal paste? /sims + paste?). What products have others used?
BR.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This might be of help
http://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-6p/general/guide-improve-cooling-greatly-reduce-t3323898
Since we have no dedicated hardware modding subforum I just went for the mod section - feel free to move the thread accordingly if I am in the wrong.
Recently I broke my OP3 and bought two used ones with shattered displays of ebay, assembling a frankenstein sort of phone with my working parts. Now I have two working OP3s, my daily driver and one with a shattered display. In addition, I have one that is almost completely ruined and useless. That got me thinking.
I recently saw a lot of manufacturers incorporating heat pipes made of copper, filled with a little liquid into their devices to spread the heat from the SoC more efficiently along the backside of the device. Namely the Razer Phone, The Galaxy S8 and S9, the new Pocophone F1, just to name a few. Naturally, these parts come available at replacement shops for cheap. Like here for example: https://stellatech.com/en/samsung-sm-g950f-galaxy-s8-heat-pipe,a,828202.html/
Now, since my OP3 tends to get hot in the SoC/Camera area not only during gaming, I thought why not try fitting one of these to the aluminum back of the phone. The OP3 appears to have some sort of thermally conducting sticker, connecting the SoC under its shield to the aluminum back for heat dissipation.
My plan would be to Dremel a groove into the aluminum back, to fit the heat pipe. Then secure it in place with thermally conducting glue, alternatively thermal paste and some drops of epoxy along the way. Remove the shield from the soc, cut the sides off for easier alignment and solder it to the heat pipe.
Then add some thermal paste to the CPU and GPU and press the back/heat pipe/shield assembly on, closing up the phone. Paste would have to be replaced every time the phone is opened though.
I am open to any suggestions how to better achieve this as well as educated guesses on the effectiveness of my project.
I
Or better
Replace the shield with thermal pad copper joined with the heatpipe
Apply liquid metal instead normal thermal paste
Make many tiny holes in the back case
Make a custom build cooler pad with 11000 RPM fans
Build by yourself or ask some kernel devs to put a very high frequencies in the custom setting
Put it on youtube with a clickbait title even it's not working
$ Profit $
150208 said:
Or better
Replace the shield with thermal pad copper joined with the heatpipe
Apply liquid metal instead normal thermal paste
Make many tiny holes in the back case
Make a custom build cooler pad with 11000 RPM fans
Build by yourself or ask some kernel devs to put a very high frequencies in the custom setting
Put it on youtube with a clickbait title even it's not working
$ Profit $
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone give this guy a medal!!
Aluminium alone works also as a heat spreader. So I would maybe first try to polish the area on the case where the SoC is , to improve contact quality, and then use some higher quality thermal pad.
Run benchmarks before and after. (Like 10,x geekbench in a row.)
Heatpipes're used everywhere in tech these days. They work fine. I enjoy a snarky comment as much as the next droider, but really there's no reason you couldn't mod a case back to have a heatpipe running all the way down, although it might heat up the battery running past it.
Alternative
or you can try using this instead just copy paste on Amazon
Innovation Cooling Graphite Thermal Pad – Alternative To Thermal Paste/Grease (30 X 30mm)
for us, the PC enthusiasts its been working legit wonders while not having the downsides of paste
I think it would be unnecessary for already cooled device
I was able to get crazy good benchmarks with the phone over the AC vent. So we obviously have a physical thermal issue. I have replaced the battery 3 times twice on my wife's mi mix. So I am wondering if anyone has tried to do anything.
I had planned to use slim copper shims with some premium thermal paste but never got around to it. The thermal pad/rubber on the sd821 looks like crap.
I don't get any perfomance improvement using copper shim, also complicated to install it correctly. At some point i got ghosting image on the lcd. Because it's little bit to thick.
Different height between cpu and pmic.
I'm planning to change it with some premium thermal pads. I'm sure it will be enough, because we don't talk about a 100W processor.
What kind of temps are you getting?
kevin168 said:
I don't get any perfomance improvement using copper shim, also complicated to install it correctly. At some point i got ghosting image on the lcd. Because it's little bit to thick.
Different height between cpu and pmic.
I'm planning to change it with some premium thermal pads. I'm sure it will be enough, because we don't talk about a 100W processor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for sharing! So we can skip the copper shim. What about a copper back replacement? Like make an AutoCAD of the back plate and have it CnC'd online?
I know it sound like I'm putting too much effort but I love to tinker with things.
reID.entify said:
What kind of temps are you getting?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Using miui nougat version + psychedelic kernel 0.7
Downclocked maximum cpu and gpu core.
Around 72-80c, while playing games like pubg.
I removed thermal control files also.
When normal use like browsing,chat,youtube.
It's just around 38-45c, phone is cooling down faster in my experience.
I'm living in a tropical country, my room temperature is ussually more than 30c.
This phone is a giant oven. If i install MIUI Stock just can B used to griddle Girl's Hair. So, a good 1 is adding thermal paste to the CPU CHIP directly, a good one. When i change the Battery i'll do it.
How much american dollars will cost?