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Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.
Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.
Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo
rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.
jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!
pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.
Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.
rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??
This is just my opinion....
Once in a while, a new mobile device comes along and sets imaginations and credit cards on fire. Something compelling, something new. The next big thing perhaps? How many of these devices can you remember from the past couple of years? A few? Now; just how many of these lived up to their full potential?
Go on, take a guess.
Zero.
Now don’t get me wrong here. When I say potential, I mean their hardware potential. Just because the end product is popular and sells well, it doesn’t mean it lives up to what it could be.
Consider the current driver issue with the HTC Tytn II. Many people are very unhappy with the performance of the video drivers. The device is very slow at redrawing the screen when the display is rotated. In some programs like Tomtom , it appears that the device absolutely struggles with motion on the screen. Others have complained about sub-par video playback performance.
A petition has been started, and I am sure by now HTC have received thousands of complaints from unhappy Tytn II owners. Everyone is asking for the same thing; a set of drivers that can use the new Qualcomm hardware to its full advantage. HTC even mentions the capabilities of the new Qualcomm MSM7500™ and MSM7200™ chipsets in their press release. The press release even states that the TYTN II is based on the new dual core chipset. Yet the overall performance just doesn’t seem to compare to the manufacturers claims.
HTC’s response has been rather subdued. Their approach seems to have changed a little. At first, they didn’t seem concerned and suggested that the device worked as advertised, i.e.: it could play videos but it was essentially designed as a business tool. Only after many complaints had been made did they listen and start taking information for the performance related issues, not just the video playback.
So why won’t they develop and release the drivers as so many people have requested? Simple answer really:
Long term profit. Let me explain.
The TYTN II is one of the first HTC devices to feature the new Qualcomm chipset. Compare it to the other HTC devices that have the same Qualcomm chipset, none of their specifications are quite the same. Each device is the first generation on the new chipset for its particular niche.
We are, essentially, beta testers. We buy the latest technology, use it heavily, complain about the bugs and report our findings back to the manufacturer via blog posts, reviews and complaints. It doesn’t need to be direct feedback; the internet is full of corporate trolls. Whatever you mention about their device, no matter where it is, chances are it has been read by one of these trolls. We can’t help it; we all like to express our opinions and frustrations. Its fun discussing options and troubleshooting with others on forums and websites. The most serious complaints are taken down, and over the next couple of revisions (e.g.: Tytn III?) they are generally ironed out.
This is why the drivers are not coming. HTC are banking on those who are frustrated with their device not living up to its potential, to upgrade and buy the successor. Not the best business method by a long shot, however thanks to early adopters and geeks, it’s a profitable one.
Oh, but you won’t ever, ever buy another HTC device again? Yes, you probably will. So will I. I found it quite amusing reading posts about the new Sony Ericsson Xperia X1. Many people said that they would buy it over a HTC device, but the fact is it IS a HTC device. My bet is it will sell like hotcakes, however I bet there will be some issues that will mean it won’t live up to its full potential. Sure, the issues cited with the Tytn II (and other early HTC Qualcomm devices) will be addressed.
The introduction of new features leaves the door open for new issues. We will discuss these issues. The trolls will read these issues. The issues will be addressed in the next generation of handsets. When it comes time for a new chipset, expect a bunch of new issues and complaints to arise.
It’s the circle of consumerism.
My next device won't even be a WM one, let alone HTC's junk. I've had enough of all the stupid problems with either the hardware or the OS. Next time my contract rolls around for renewal, I'm gonna buy a plain and simple Nokia just for calls.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=368108 a proper windows mobile phone bye bye htc once my damn contract on this stupid phone ends *shakes fist*
Until such time as it's on the market and proven to be what it claims, I'll consider it just so much marsh gas; much like HTC's promises.
FloatingFatMan said:
My next device won't even be a WM one, let alone HTC's junk. I've had enough of all the stupid problems with either the hardware or the OS. Next time my contract rolls around for renewal, I'm gonna buy a plain and simple Nokia just for calls.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
definitely my way too
Are there any known MSM7xxx phones that have the video acceleration?
My suspicion is that the following happened:
HTC was one of the first manufacturers to use the MSM7xxx series
3D acceleration was a "growth feature" that needed development and HTC wanted to get the device out the door and add the video acceleration later
Broadcom sues Qualcomm over patent infringement in the MSM7xxx series
Broadcom wins suit and Qualcomm is served with an injunction forbidding it to sell or even support infringing chipsets
HTC is screwed because their vendor is now legally forbidden from providing them the support they need to implement accelerated video
HTC also does not hint at the real reason for the drivers not existing for political and/or contractual reasons
HTC's "buy a future device" comment means "we need to find something that isn't covered by the Broadcom injunction against Qualcomm"
Entropy512 said:
Are there any known MSM7xxx phones that have the video acceleration?
My suspicion is that the following happened:
HTC was one of the first manufacturers to use the MSM7xxx series
3D acceleration was a "growth feature" that needed development and HTC wanted to get the device out the door and add the video acceleration later
Broadcom sues Qualcomm over patent infringement in the MSM7xxx series
Broadcom wins suit and Qualcomm is served with an injunction forbidding it to sell or even support infringing chipsets
HTC is screwed because their vendor is now legally forbidden from providing them the support they need to implement accelerated video
HTC also does not hint at the real reason for the drivers not existing for political and/or contractual reasons
HTC's "buy a future device" comment means "we need to find something that isn't covered by the Broadcom injunction against Qualcomm"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, everything you said makes perfect sense.
Chances of Kaiser getting video drivers - ZERO
Although I respect your opinion, and you are probably right, I have to say that making HTC develop/release drivers is just one of the paths we are exploring. I believe in our case it is essential to explore every possible opportunity to get Kaiser to use it's hardware 100%. That includes lawsuit, 3rd party developing drivers, ripping drivers from another device, getting SDK from ATi/Qualcomm, etc etc.
Whatever it takes - we must explore it... even if it sounds crazy or unlikely. Besdies... it's not like we have to pay cash for every opportunity that doesn't work.
FloatingFatMan said:
My next device won't even be a WM one, let alone HTC's junk. I've had enough of all the stupid problems with either the hardware or the OS. Next time my contract rolls around for renewal, I'm gonna buy a plain and simple Nokia just for calls.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here...
DarkDvr said:
Although I respect your opinion, and you are probably right, I have to say that making HTC develop/release drivers is just one of the paths we are exploring. I believe in our case it is essential to explore every possible opportunity to get Kaiser to use it's hardware 100%. That includes lawsuit, 3rd party developing drivers, ripping drivers from another device, getting SDK from ATi/Qualcomm, etc etc.
Whatever it takes - we must explore it... even if it sounds crazy or unlikely. Besdies... it's not like we have to pay cash for every opportunity that doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely! I would love to see one of the developers here sort out drivers, or see the drivers ripped from another device work. I have my doubts that it will happen, however it would be fantastic to be proven wrong.
Has their been any real progress towards a solution as yet though? I'm not trying to sound too negative (even if thats not how it sounds..) I've read about the LG driver rip that works / doesnt work depending on who you listen to. Has there been any proven progress to date with either developing or obtaining an SDK?
Many seem to think the Kaiser won't ever get the missing drivers. I'm a bit more optimistic in this point. I still hope that - if not HTC - at least members of this forum are some day able to (re-)engineer the necessary drivers. Am I only dreamer or what do you think? Is it that unlikely that it will happen?
Hey... I just went to Vodafone store and tried the LG KS20, i think it has the same hardware as the tytn 2 (check http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdacomparer&id1=733&id2=825 to compare), but doesn't looks like it suffers from the same problems as the tytn. I tried the camera and isn't more slow than a regular phone camera? Might be a solution of the problem? I don't know but it's worth checking it...
LG KS20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQEsjzHgnpA&feature=related
Shows video performance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U-w1oTQ3BA&feature=related
If Broadcomm are the ones that will prevent support, then why do XDA or HTC not approach Broadcomm for assistance instead? That may be an avenue which may yield more positive responses than going after HTC.
Pummy said:
If Broadcomm are the ones that will prevent support, then why do XDA or HTC not approach Broadcomm for assistance instead? That may be an avenue which may yield more positive responses than going after HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only Broadcomm IP in the Qualcomm chip is the technique for power backoff when there's no signal. It's like asking Honda how to get your Toyota engine to work.
Regardless of HTC's intent on this issue, the fact is they are building a "perception", at least in this forum, of poor customer support/response. This can be seen by the hyper-attention it receives at XDA. Is it justified? Some say yes, some say no. Personally, the biggest issue I have is with the lagging camera and the slow autofocus. I can't get my daughter too sit still long enough to let the camera to focus on her and get the shot I want. I can live with the slow screen rotation and even the laggy video playback. To be honest, I never expected super gaming or video from a QVGA screen... but that's just me.
That being said, perception becomes reality without response or action. HTC is playing an ill-advised hand if they think people will just buy their next product and just forget about their Kaiser/Tilt experience. This is coming from an unsatisfied ex-Axim owner.
NuShrike said:
The only Broadcomm IP in the Qualcomm chip is the technique for power backoff when there's no signal. It's like asking Honda how to get your Toyota engine to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did not know that. Looks like I will need to start reading up on the case and settlement.
As mad as I am that the drivers are not there, my tilt still blowes away my previous device, I hope for a fix, but until then I will be scoping my new device as with my last and the one before. Yes HTC will not be my prefered option, but then I will base that on what is available at the next upgrade time.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=355345&page=35
There may.. MAY come a time where we'll all actually thank and appologize to HTC, hehe. Judging by the latest article (insider interview) and supposed Peter Chou emails.. Qualcomm may be the one to blame in this, and HTC is as much of a victim of Qualcomm's hopeful lies as we are.
I'm not saying that it's true, I'm just saying that'd be a really interesting turn of events
I feel like I'm reading a crime mystery hehe.
Hi
There may.. MAY come a time where we'll all actually thank and appologize to HTC, hehe. Judging by the latest article (insider interview) and supposed Peter Chou emails.. Qualcomm may be the one to blame in this, and HTC is as much of a victim of Qualcomm's hopeful lies as we are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This may be true however ultimately HTC still misled it's customers using the Qualcomm feature set in PR, specifications and marketing releases. HTC will have known they were shipping the phones without the necessary drivers, but of course it would be too costly to hold back all their new models or redesign the phones around a different chipset, so they went ahead and sold them hoping no one would really notice!
HTC are making huge profits on the back of mis-advertising their latest products so it's hard for me to give very much sympathy if any at all to them They still have not made any official statement or apology to their customers, except for a rather cold and clinical statement to their shareholders. Yes I know various websites have comments from HTC regarding the matter but none of this has been put officially on their website and is just viral marketing, using the same tricks that got them in this mess in the first place.
Regards
Phil
As pointed out by DarkDvr the content of this thraed is now crossing with the content in at least two other threads:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...355345&page=35
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=359534
Please use one of them to continue any discussion.
Thank you
Mike
Microsoft and HTC both agree on XDA-Developers "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em
According to tweakers.net (dutch), a very popular and more important, trustworthy Dutch IT website.http://forum.xda-developers.com/
XDA-Developers breaches intellectual property laws regarding ROM Cooking.
However Microsoft and HTC both agree "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em."
Microsoft will not send take down orders to sites such as XDA-Developers, who offer customized ROMs for windows-mobile telephone.
Some sites offering ROMs based on Windows Mobile 6.5 got take down orders last week. They, However, appeared to be hoax.
“Taking action against sites such as XDA-Developers isn’t a matter of concern for Microsoft” says Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands against tweakers.net. “What happens there, the modifying of ROMs, is illegal. The intellectual property however is not with us. The ROMs are intellectual property of the producers of the phone or the mobile phone providers if it concerns branded telephones. We simple only deliver the OS.”
The biggest producer of Windows Mobile-phones, HTC, also says they don’t have any plans to take action against ROM sites. “What happens there isn’t allowed” says HTC Benelux-CEO Mark Moons,
“But XDA-Developers is the biggest and most active community of Windows Mobile-developers. We can’t live with ‘em and we can’t live without ‘em.”
Last week it seemed there were to come an end to tolerating Windows Mobile-communities.
A certain ‘James Young’ sent emails on behalf of Microsoft to site managers in which he stated that they were sharing illegal content, and summoned them to stop their practices; some site managers, in fact, did this.
It mostly concerned ROMs with betas of Windows Mobile 6.5, the update of Microsoft’s Mobile OS that should appear this summer
Haha nice one
Nice, but doesn't come much as a surprise. This community is the only reason Windows Mobile is still competitive. And Microsoft knows it. Besides that, why should they bother? Other than on the desktop PC, the phone hardware is quite limited without proper drivers WM won't run on phones which weren't supposed to run it in the first place. So Microsoft sold their license, HTC (or any other manufacturer) bought it and end of story. They have absolutly no disadvantage when ppl start cooking ROMs - in the contrary. I can't even begin to image using my X1 or any other WM-phone without the customization options presented here. Without them, I wouldn't have bought another WM-phone and become a WM-fan ... ;-)
Read this on tweakers.net yesterday, don't know if we should be happy about this statement.
But it seems xda-developers is going to be watched carefully by MS and HTC, probably has been already.
Until the take serious actions against this community I'm going to flash my X1 with Touch-IT ROMs as many as possible
I would say Microsoft and HTC is the winners here. The ROM cooking means more people is attracted to the platform and for me the reason I bough the X1 was this community.
Rather than moaning, HTC and Microsoft should make donations to XDADevs because this community is one of the main reasons why both of them rose to unforeseen heights.
skycamefalling said:
Rather than moaning, HTC and Microsoft should make donations to XDADevs because this community is one of the main reasons why both of them rose to unforeseen heights.
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Totally agree with u lolz
E90 Commie said:
I would say Microsoft and HTC is the winners here. The ROM cooking means more people is attracted to the platform and for me the reason I bough the X1 was this community.
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+1
i bought my htc wizard and SE x1 because of xda-developers.if they shut rom sites down i ll never buy windows mobile device that's for sure.my phone is my home so i ll decide how will i decorate my home not microsoft.cheers
Yeah i've read that also (im dutch and visit that site 3 times a day or so )
I think that htc says "MAKE NICE ROMS XDA, or else we will.....)
I'll add my 2 pennies worth...
I'm not a cook, though I sorely wish I were! However, thanks to XDA developers, I've had WM phones for the past 5 years, up until Blue Angel I *only* would have Nokia phones, but I was given the Blue Angel as a present and hated it. I then accidentally found XDA when I was going to sell the Blue Angel and was looking for a way to unlock the sim. Figuring I had nothing to lose as I hated the phone anyway, I put a new rom on and fell in love! Since then, I've had every HTC phone and just recently went to the Xperia *ONLY* because of this website. If XDA wasn't here, I would have gotten the N96 or a Blackberry.
So, for what it is worth MS and HTC if you're reading... Leave XDA alone, support it where you can, and be happy for the generosity of this community for making the product you produce better and more usable!
the only reason I got rid of my Omina and went back to a HTC made pda was because of the support and options that I can find here, good move from microsoft however I suspect microsoft as always turned a blind eye to a degree (remember the fpt problems?)
Cool. This is a pretty big community of developers.
James Joung lives here in my neighbourhood
Now I understand why he has spent the whole week laughing
Well,
if it wern't for XDA developers, when I got my Orange c500 (Back in the day) that would have been the last WM phone I bought.
Since then ive had:
Orange c550
Orance c600
MDA Vario
HTC TYTN
HTC Touch Diamond
Sony Xperia X1
goes to show the value of XDA... if anything, I think Microsoft, HTC etc should jump on the band wagon and help chefs get the best out of WM, or at least, some kind of formal agreement should be attained to help protect the community
can't live without them(xda),hehe.. htc and microsoft should donate to support xda !
gtrab said:
James Joung lives here in my neighbourhood
Now I understand why he has spent the whole week laughing
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Click to collapse
Maybe he was laughing because his CEO, told him that if he will try to touch this site, he will have to fill up for unemployment... This site have 41,159 members (ONLY ) and allmost all of us, we own between 2-4 HTC pda phones. If HTC will loose us, I guess that they will show the middle finger to Microsoft and they will stick with Android from the time on...
To be honest in that perverse way MS has BENEFITTED from 'Piracy' etc. throughout their history. Take Office for example - way back in the day Lotus and Wordperfect were the dominant market forces. MS were trying to force their way into the market wth their Office products. In the end they blew away the competition - how? Because their media had no copy protection - thus Office Workers ended up getting copies from work to put on their home PCs to carry on extra work at home. The others had copy protection.
MS turned a blind eye to this because they knew that the more people had Office, the more they would want it in their workplace - so much so that in the end how many companies use those products anymore? Now that they are the dominant force, Piracy is an issue.
It is the same with sites like XDA-Devs. The mobile phone market is huge and will get bigger even in these times. WinMo is still a small part of that market - Nokia and Symbian undoubtably have an edge here. However people are becoming more savvy about mobiles and want more from them which is where MS, RIM, and Apple come in (with an improving Symbian).
However if all the consumers had to rely on was 'Stock' ROMs and buggy WinMo (esp. when consumers will compare it to the iPhone etc.) then WinMo would have nowehere near the amount of consumers, and would die a slow death. However thanks to XDA-Devs (and sites like these) we can buy these phones confident that some super talented Cook will provide us with a ROM that will get us the full experience of these devices. Hence we will then buy the next generation, then the next etc.
MS and HTC know this - hence why they can't 'live without 'em'. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face eh?....
@itje
after reading the good news.. please bring back your Touch-IT WM 6.5 project rom.. hehe =)
damskie said:
@itje
after reading the good news.. please bring back your Touch-IT WM 6.5 project rom.. hehe =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He just did, and posted the new ROM for download.
[/offtopic]
Here is some morning reading. As HTC gets more main stream, will XDA get more irrelevant , behind mainstream google and WM developers?
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/12/android-htc-profile/
denco7 said:
Here is some morning reading. As HTC gets more main stream, will XDA get more irrelevant , behind mainstream google and WM developers?
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/12/android-htc-profile/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, this is indeed the danger. Not a certain fact, but certainly a danger - as I said in a recent thread:
This does not of course mean good news for XDA-Developers (their unofficial support base). It may in fact mean that the whole process of support and development becomes more official - teams of paid developers etc etc. This could mean that the old voluntary developer type forum becomes something they no longer wish to unofficially support. We will need to wait to see whether success brings more work and more to develop by XDA-Developers or on the contrary; a clamping down by hTC and M$.
Remember, mass market success is not about small groups of geeky developers sitting at home and posting on the net, it is about applications that will be marketed and officially supported and therefore controlled by hTC, Google and M$.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=5132979&postcount=4
in this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=5132979#post5132979
Things are changing!!
Mike
Yeah, the more mainstream they get, the less they may want people tampering with their "intellectual property." Hopefully, that won't be the case, and the XDA community will continue to grow and thrive with independent developers seeking to make HTC just that much better!
February 29, Mircosoft is supposed to release the consumer Beta of Windows 8. Reported to support Intel, AMD, and ARM processors, assuming I read the article correctly. Is it likely that we would be able to port it to our Touchpads? I know thats been asked before, with a resounding answer of "No, the only tablets to get Win8 will be blah blah blah." Or "Microsoft wouldn't allow users to blah blah blah."
Don't get me wrong, I'm over-joyed with the advent of CM9 being finished sooner now that the source code from HP has been released. But, being a windows fanboy, I can't help myself wishing for a release on my Touchpad.
ethankz750 said:
February 29, Mircosoft is supposed to release the consumer Beta of Windows 8. Reported to support Intel, AMD, and ARM processors, assuming I read the article correctly. Is it likely that we would be able to port it to our Touchpads? I know thats been asked before, with a resounding answer of "No, the only tablets to get Win8 will be blah blah blah." Or "Microsoft wouldn't allow users to blah blah blah."
Don't get me wrong, I'm over-joyed with the advent of CM9 being finished sooner now that the source code from HP has been released. But, being a windows fanboy, I can't help myself wishing for a release on my Touchpad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With the release of the Android kernel this week, I think our chances increased. But let's not rush devs...someone will pick up the ball and run with it if they choose to do so.
That doesn't really answer your question, but sorry. Currently, you're correct. The HPTP doesn't run Windows. But in the future...well, if I could know what would happen tomorrow or next week, I'd work on Wall Street and just buy a Transformer Prime, and a Win8 tablet, and an iPad2, a Bugatti Vehyron (sp?) etc you get the point.
Due to the way it will be distributed and the licensing, XDA cannot promote the development or porting of it. /thread
danknee said:
Due to the way it will be distributed and the licensing, XDA cannot promote the development or porting of it. /thread
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which shouldn't prevent us from discussing the possibility of it happening...and doesn't mean it won't happen.
/reply
sean is here. said:
Which shouldn't prevent us from discussing the possibility of it happening...and doesn't mean it won't happen.
/reply
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All fun and games until a link gets posted. Might work if the site name changes to XDA-talking and news only, no doing anything please.
danknee said:
All fun and games until a link gets posted. Might work if the site name changes to XDA-talking and news only, no doing anything please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm very much with you. I abhor people posting warez links here, and detest un-allowed mirrors...(i.e. external mirrors to rootzwiki's dev's work) but the way I understood it, the OP was just asking for a bit of speculation as to whether it might one day happen.
Noted. If it happens, it will be considered warez and should not be promoted here. I'm very intimidated by SOPA/PIPA and don't want to lose this site because of dumbasses posting warez here.
Correct, I was just curious about it. Thanks for the reply Sean. Based on Microsoft's past, I would assume they will offer Win8 ARM to be installed on any compatible tablet, just like they do with Windows desktop. I am aware that tablets vary, so it might not be possible currently. If they do offer a purchasable Win8 ARM, I will be first in line to buy it. If it does end up being (inevitably) warez, then I will not be promoting it here, where big brother can see me.
Off topic, I come here, to the Q&A thread, to discuss, read discussions, and bounce ideas around. This may be XDA Dev but, if thats all we did was dev, then we wouldn't need a forum to talk about it.
It is more likely that Windows 8 ARM will be an OEM only product, just made available to developers and hardware manufacturers (like MS do with Windows Storage Server), as it will need significant driver customisation for each platform.
"x86/64 apps will not be able to be ported to ARM" http://m.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/02/how-windows-apps-will-run-on-arm-tablets/
Also there will be two total hardware versions this is being developed to run on.
Why would anyone want this? Without the x86 programs it might as well be the next Windows phone in tablet version (flop)
Metro / HTML5 apps is where they will push a unified app experience with Windows Phone 8, XBOX 360, Windows 8. These will run on x86 or ARM, and as these will be touch friendly, it could be a big hit for MS on tablets. I agree that ARM versions of Windows 8 will probably only be OEM licensed, but we can always hope they open it up for independent developers.
Clearest statement so far coming through PC Pro article - http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/372730/microsoft-windows-on-arm-wont-be-sold-separately
With all the restrictions Microsoft is putting on the ARM version it sounds like it would be quite a pain to get something working. HP tested Windows 8 on the Touchpad since OEMs have had access to the ARM developer preview already.
Seeing that ARM Windows won't run x86/64 Windows programs, it probably won't be of that much use anyways. About the biggest selling point I see is Microsoft is making Office for ARM I believe so it would be nice to have a real Office Suite. But Android is also getting LibreOffice.
But, being a windows fanboy
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Click to collapse
Come to the Linux side, we have cookies !
Really, what tha sense in using this crap, if there will be no apps? It's only reason to use windows, IMHO...
I have a feeling that Windows for Arm or WOA it's just rebranded Windows CE with metro and other stuff , not Win 8 port ...
www.anandtech.com/show/5527/microsoft-provides-windows-on-arm-details
Latest info on it. (2/10/2012)
Short version: no x86 apps on ARM (they have to be installed through Windows own app market), licenses only distributed through OEMs. And don't forget that ALL Windows on ARM tablets will be required to have a locked and signed bootloader.
My opinion: I don't see what the fuzz and excitement is all about Win 8 ARM tablets, they will run in closed, controlled environment that mirrors more Windows Phone 7 than desktop Windows. I can definitely see the less informed people thinking they can essentially port all their laptop experience into a tablet seamlessly, hence the excitement, but once you know what Windows on ARM really is going to be, there isn't much to be excited about.
EDIT: Allow this topic to end once and for all
The story for ARM is rather different, however. On ARM Windows 8 systems, Microsoft's certification rules prohibit entering "custom mode"—users must not be able to add certificates of their own—and prohibit disabling secure boot completely. The ARM systems will all require the use of a signed operating system loader, and that operating system loader must be signed by Microsoft.
Microsoft's rules also specify that a secure boot failure must be fatal; there must be no option to override the failure and choose to boot the untrusted operating system.
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Click to collapse
Source: arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/01/windows-8s-locked-bootloaders-much-ado-about-nothing-or-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it.ars
littleemp said:
Microsoft's rules also specify that a secure boot failure must be fatal; there must be no option to override the failure and choose to boot the untrusted operating system.
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How long do you actually expect that to last without a workaround?
Richard Mongler said:
How long do you actually expect that to last without a workaround?
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You're missing the point, that's one of many failsafes, including no source code and an enforced signed bootloader will make it development hell for most devices.
littleemp said:
You're missing the point, that's one of many failsafes, including no source code and an enforced signed bootloader will make it development hell for most devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you're missing the point.
Microsoft is releasing their software to OEMs only and not to private developers/individuals because they want to create a software ecosystem comparable to Apple's model -- one closed Mobile OS, one "open" Workstation OS, one open Server OS -- but that doesn't mean porting it is going to be completely impossible. On top of that, all the complaints about x86 applications not running in ARM environments are a bit silly.
Have you ever actually tried to use a desktop OS on a tablet? I have.
Windows 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8I_KjP8Dc4
Ubuntu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp6b3kOKWbg
OSX (yes, that OSX):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUpKN1ckGhE
x86 applications and other full-OS applications are NOT fun or easy to manipulate without a proper keyboard and mouse, it ends up being more annoying than convenient and you'll go to your laptop or desktop to do what you needed to do anyway. This is a good move for Microsoft, even if XDA doesn't like it.
Good move? Hardly. This means they are showing up to the tablet game late, with a virgin OS, and without any software. Look for a repeat of the Windows Phone launch.
Secure boot will be able to be disabled in the BIOS on OEM Windows 8 systems it sounds like.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/leading-pc-makers-confirm-no-windows-8-plot-to-lock-out-linux/4185
spunker88 said:
Secure boot will be able to be disabled in the BIOS on OEM Windows 8 systems it sounds like.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/leading-pc-makers-confirm-no-windows-8-plot-to-lock-out-linux/4185
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Click to collapse
Read the article I linked about the Bootloader from Ars Technica and then read yours again. Nowhere does it state that this applies to the Windows on ARM version of the OS.
x86 machines will be able to boot with Secure Boot disabled just fine, ARM versions won't.
Richard Mongler said:
I think you're missing the point.
Microsoft is releasing their software to OEMs only and not to private developers/individuals because they want to create a software ecosystem comparable to Apple's model -- one closed Mobile OS, one "open" Workstation OS, one open Server OS -- but that doesn't mean porting it is going to be completely impossible. On top of that, all the complaints about x86 applications not running in ARM environments are a bit silly.
Have you ever actually tried to use a desktop OS on a tablet? I have.
Windows 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8I_KjP8Dc4
Ubuntu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp6b3kOKWbg
OSX (yes, that OSX):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUpKN1ckGhE
x86 applications and other full-OS applications are NOT fun or easy to manipulate without a proper keyboard and mouse, it ends up being more annoying than convenient and you'll go to your laptop or desktop to do what you needed to do anyway. This is a good move for Microsoft, even if XDA doesn't like it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Technical reasons aside, do you know the reason why development simply won't take off? Because XDA isn't a piracy website and nobody wants to get sued for hosting pirated content. IF Microsoft puts their foot down (like they are doing), Windows on ARM development will simply not happen.
Why is it different for homebrewed WP7 ROMs? Because it falls into an undefined grey area.
People need to STOP dreaming about Windows on ARM on current hardware and just go buy a new device with it preloaded once it comes out, because unless Microsoft makes several concessions to the development community, it's simply not going to happen.
Now to address your other point, WOA isn't going to be the panacea of tablets like so many people want to think simply because it's plastered with the Windows logo. It's going to be a Metro themed ARM-compatible OS separate from the x86 versions, it will have a separate "App Store", and it will NOT run .exe files. It won't be a Desktop-on-Tablet Experience, just another competitor to Android and iOS (And a late one to the race while at that).
I have looked at the Metro UI and what Windows 8 has to offer and I'm not impressed. Also I cannot understand all the hype, since Microsoft tends to exaggerate things to garner attention (e.g. Vista will be a "Gamer OS", we all know how that turned out... Took them a year to bring up performance to par with XP and another year to crank out 7 and finally make it better than XP), so if Microsoft isn't even boasting this time around and just letting misdirection and poor communication from their PR create all this hype, it's going to fall flat on it's face.
In conclusion, WOA is simply going to be another tablet OS, one that is late to the party, most likely buggy and in need of patching and a lot of feedback to bring to a satisfactory level. Will it be a complete flop? Who can tell... But it will most definitely not revolutionize tablets as we know them. (And this point can be taken as a fact, since Microsoft has NEVER released something working properly, it has always taken them a lot of time and patches)
EDIT: And I mention x86 applications, because this is what has people to riled up and excited over the whole thing, being able to translate their desktop/laptop experience and programs into a tablet. You may understand the difference here, but all the people asking these questions ("Will it run on my Touchpad?" "Will it run on my Asus Transformer?") do not.